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My brother plays Warriors of Choas and I play Bretonnia. I always lose. I am looking for a list that can kill any kind of Warriors of Choas list. The list may have any Bretonniain unit and my brother plays all kinds of Warriors of Choas lists.
honestly, without seeing what your exact lists are that you're using, it's impossible to give you any advice, you need to be more specific, also, it's "chaos" a before the o
Chaos Warriors (2009) 16-4-9
I'm with hurtinator
but the bretts have several things that give them advantages I believe in fighting chaos. They have decent leadership (esp. for humans) They have decent W. Fighting chaos, they will always get a good armorsave and a good wardsave. You have several awesome abilities and magic items to take out their ubercharacters. You have more shooting than they do (and that's saying something!)
Your troops are more manueverable.
I would expect you to field a list like this (the kind I would field ) 2x trebuchet, 1 big unit of archer skirmishers (15-20 w/banner)
2 units of fast cav, 1 unit of pegusus knights
3+ units of KotR
complement of characters (2x scrollcaddies on horses for MR1) Lord, bsb at least.
I am his brother and thought I would help by posting some thoughts on the armies we tend to field. But first I need people to understand that we are not restricted by models we own because we substitute models that look similar to what we are fielding or if we don't have enough models we just cut bases out of paper and use that.
As Chaos I tend to field two different armies.
One of these is an all Calvary Khrone list with a few Slaanesh things tossed in.
The second is a magic heavy list lead by a Tzeentch Daemon Prince at level 4. He is supported by 2 level 2 wizards. I then field 2units of warriros, 1 unit of Marauder Horsemen, 2 units of knights, 2 chariots, and 2 spawns.
As Bretonnia he fields heavy knight armies. He sometimes takes a trebuchet but we have never really seen it do much. He takes archers but he finds it very hard to kill anything but Marauder Horsemen seeing as how recently I have not been fielding blocks of marauders. The unit that has hurt me most is his Pegasus Knights. When fighting infantry armies his charges are devastating but he has trouble getting the charge when I play my calvary list.
Please any advise you might have for him would be greatly, it has even gotten to the point where he refuses to play games with me and I have to spend more time setting up times to play with my friends
Cavalry Khorne is easy to deal with - yeomen with no standard, skirting round the cavalry units to misdirect/redirect Charges. Then your heavy knight lances hit the flanks of the Chaos forces and juggernaut through them....After all, with ranks, hopefully a couple of casualties and no hits back, you should win, at the cost of a cheap yeomen.
Similarly, the RAF Bretonnian List can pick apart a Khrne army as well.
Against the Tzeentch force, I would advise that the list is easier to pick apart - the warriors are slow, as are the spawn, any the demon prince is expensive, and dealt with by a suitably equipped character (killing blow against monsters anyone :-) )
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make sure he's doing his prayers in the first turn, that ward save is HUGE, with a bit of luck that alone can win a game for him, also, get him to take some damsels for magic defense/offense. he's going to have to master the art of redirecting enemy charges and ALWAYS getting the charge himself, this is why bretonia is NOT a beginners army, but in the hands of an experienced player can totally devistate pretty much everything.
Chaos Warriors (2009) 16-4-9
For all cavalry vs (essentially) all cavalry, it's all about getting the charge. Bretonnians have an advatage here, because of their charge range.
The same is true of infantry chaos. The extra magic hurts, but chaos warriors (unlike daemons) can be broken on the charge, and with proper application of tactics, it ought to be very doable.
Not saying that Bretonnians v Chaos should be a walkover, but it's definately not one of our tougher matchups.
But that's not happening, clearly. Given that it's not, there are two possiblities that spring to mind:
1) The difference in skill levels between the two of you is simply very large. Not trying to be nasty, just recognising this as a possibility.
2) Your brother is playing the wrong army. In my experience, playing an army that "fits" the way you think makes a huge difference in how well you perform on the battlefield.
in either case, I have a suggestion to make. As somebody who (though a long time veteran of 40k) is only just starting fantasy, I have found it very helpful to start with small games and work up. When you start doing too much at once there is so much "noise" that you don't notice what is and is not working for you.
Why don't you and your brother try playing some border patrol games? And then 750 point games, and then 1000 point games, etc. Give him the chance to experiment with units, or even armies, that he has not tried before.
I say all this as someone who does not play an all, or even mostly, mounted Bretonnian army because I'm rubbish with that kind of fighting force. I lack the elan and flair that an aggressive cavalry force requires. But, as you can see from my signature, with combined arms I have been beating experienced players despite being a novice. I just "get" the army strategy at some more instinctive level.
Your brother might be suprised to learn that (for example) the grinding resilience of the vampire counts suits his natural style of play, and just works much better for him. Mix things up and see how things turn out. Perhaps even switch armies for a bit. Get him to watch the way you counter your own army with his.
Just food for thought.
Since starting Bretonnians: 19 wins, no losses, no draws.
Hey bill, it's Owen I made an account just because I saw this post. I think you should take up that idea that boldo said but slightly modified. Take a royal peg to remove the restriciton and take 4-5 units of them, this is tim's weakness and even a cav army can't stand up to m20. Then have tons (40-60) archers firing away every turn wearing down his units for baiting and fleeing leaving knights and the such for your final 2 or 3 units which are large blocks of KoTR or something each with a character so you are positive it can take care of any unit he throws at you. A final solution which I guess you could use without me losing too much respect for you would be to switch to a broken army like daemons or vc.
Anyway good luck I will see you wednesday and hopefully over break for a few games where you can win a few against my ogres like the time you beat me by 800 in a 1000.. o those were not the days.
How about instead of spending a bunch of money and making a RAF army that everyone will hate you for, you try developing some game winning tactics. Folks here at LO will be more than willing to help you. Here's my advice:
1. You need to learn the "Bait n Flee to Counter" combo. Men at Arms and Yeomen make great Bait n Flee-ers because they are cheap, but Yeomen really shine because they are fast. You want to scoot your fleeing unit right up into the enemies face so he has one of two choices - charge or shuffle (shuffling is the right face, move a little, then left face).
Shuffling won't really do him much good, because you can just readjust the Yeomen in the next turn to re-establish the bait move. Put your guys an inch away at a very extreme angle (89 degrees) to the enemy, but still in front of him on the corner so he can't wheel around you. When he charges, you flee (or in some cases hold - depending on where your counter unit is), and then he is a sitting duck for when you counter charge with something nasty like a lance formation.
I put together a picture for you to show this - everything is to scale, the dots are 1" apart.
2. Another good tactic is to learn "Flee Blocking". Getting a charge does you no good if the the enemy just flees and leaves you hanging to get countered. That'd be a Bait n Flee against you! A good way to counter getting bait n flee'd yourself is to flee block. Pegasus Knights are great for this, as they can fly over the enemy, spread themselves out to maximize area covered, and then get out of the way easily due to their large movement/charge range. I did another picture for flee blocking.
Of course, all of this is much easier said than done. I base my basic strategies against soldiers on foot with M4 or M5, but there are far too many variables in a game of Woe Hammah to account for everything. Chariots/cavalry, characters, magic and ranged attacks can always foul up a great plan. And bad dice rolling can always give the enemy who is backed into a corner a lucky break and a second wind. Dealing with these variables comes with experience. But a great way to ease yourself in would be to play smaller games to start. It's tough to keep everything under control in a 2000pt game, especially if you are new to the hobby. Give a 1000 or 750 point game a go, and see how units excell, what they are good at, and what they suck at. Then let us know on the forums what you've learned and what you can pass onto the next guy.
As a chaos player I will tell you, Our knights are perhaps the best in the game. Shooting them won't help much if the knights take the blasted standard and get a ward against shooting, Tzeentch will make things worse by increasing it. I tend to think of Bretonnia as a a more CC oriented army, what with all the knights. Peasant bowmen will hardly put a dent in chaos units. And you can forget about hurting knights. When playing against chaos it's best to shoot us, sad thing is I don't think bretonnia has anything good enough. I could be wrong though.
This goes without saying, but you want to get the charge in with the knights and make use of the lances. Thing is If the Chaos knights are not broken in the turn you charge, they will probablly kill your knights errant and KoTR right and left in the following rounds. The thing to remember with Chaos knights is whatever the hit/charge, they destroy or break. Not to mention they cause fear.
Normal Chaos warriors you have a better shot against, charge them and you can reduce their armor pretty good, unless they do hand weapon and shield for the parry bonus. Chaos warriors even without the mark of khorne can make up for any lost models with the amount of attacks they throw at a unit. Extra hand weapon and mark of khorne is just plain nasty as you will be taking so many saves it won't be funny.
Chso magic is also insane, since bretonnia's magic is mediocre in my opinon (I haven't met any Breton player that prefers mages over paladins/lords.) Chaos excels in Close Combat and magic, and thats about it. Shame you can't take lore of metal. You'd cook the choas unit's in their own armor.
If a Million Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. If one marine dies, that's a tragedy.