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Now the rulebook is in stores for people to look at how do people think the bret army will change?
Well our infantry get a boost try 40maa with a character in the unit or nearby. It will be able to hold it's own against a lot of units even if it can't defeat them that easily. Plus a unit of 40maa is very cheap.
Bowmen with flaming arrows just became insanely good. With a combo of stakes and fear causing in cavalry I think they'll be doing a lot more. Not to mention volley fire making units of 20 plus archers quite good. Two units of twenty in your army can chuck out 40 shots a turn from turn 1!
well we now fear fire using troops. Not such an issue really as errant knights are immune to psych on the charge and we still have some good leadership boost options. The enemy getting their attacks could hurt but it all depends on whether they have enough power to get through our armour. Also the +1 combat res for charging should work in our favour. Overall we lose 1 inch of charge on average 2d6 but that's why the third is there. Wide units rather than lances are viable with the second rank able to hit for cav as well. Think 12 Grail knights in two ranks of 6.
well our magic just got a whole he'll of a lot better. With percentages allowing us to field 9 magic users ( yes without items/upgrades) it means even with a decent complement of knights we can get a good magic base in our armies. The pores we have access too are obscene if we get spells off t5 peasants?!
I think overall it will mean that bret armies can start taking a bit of everything and still be competitive.
What do other people think?
I will be waiting for our errata and I hope the Brets have a few more charging/cavalry boosts to make up for the nerfing cavalry got as a whole.
I have not read the rule book, but I would love to hear everyone's take on how best to run the knights with 8th. You can run 2x5 or 2x6, but can we still run the lance and have the second rank attack? Plus, wouldn't we still get essentially three ranks if running a 3x3 lance? You would only have 1 knight that could not attack in a 9-man lance. Sure, you would have more attacks if in a 2 rank formation, but you save on some knight points and you get an extra rank - although losing one knight negates that rank...
Are our knights relegated to just charging flanks now? What do the Lords of Bretonnia think?
Cavalry haven't been beefed though. Other stuff has got better but bret knights will still make a mess of infantry. You can get all the attacks from three lances against a ten wide unit. They will get more attacks back but we can also resurrect knights with a spell! The upshot is knights aren't going to be able to hit a twenty man block each that twenty man block will be 40 so we hit it with two lances. Say 18 str 5 hits and 14 str 3 without characters it's gonna cause a dent in lightly armoured units.
To add to this you can reform as you charge so we can get two ranks easily by forming lance when hitting the side!
With the variable charges now by rolling the dice? Trying to get multiple charges onto one unit?
Like I say - unless we get a few bretonnian tricks from our upcoming errata, our main weapon of breaking units on the charge just got taken away and has knocked us down the competitive chart considerably.
With rolling 3d6 and picking the two highest getting the average seven won't be that difficult plus if you are really unlucky and get only one unit in you should be able to hold for a turn and get the other two units next turn.
Yes it's harder but with premeasure and having our shooting upgraded getting at least one unit in and holding won't be that much of an issue.
- i think that models like grail knights are just too expensive to deploy in 2 ranks of 6. i can think of alot better uses for those points.
they have ok initiative, but even a 2+ save will be in trouble when people start using those rumoured massive infantry blocks with great weapons. I dare even say, knights are the ones worst off with the horde changes. Yes even worse than monsters, who now get loads of extra attacks and stuff
- Questing knights are alot more attractive
- Lance formation is still our secret weapon. Were going to need it like never before! small cheap units with free champions that can break ranks because of their 3 wide rank bonus!
- not sure if theres a good side to taking alot of Damsels. 1 or 2 is a must, but what do more add?
- even though our infantry isnt the cheapest deal around, they are without contest the best looking one!
maybe we can get ahead out of their 'standards dont give VP'. Either way, i plan on painting alot of peasants duty units
+i think we still have potential. We have to revise our tactics, but we will come out better than the lowest tier.
- good artillery: strongest catapults in game, and we can bring loads now.
- good magic: same magic potential as other armies now, but we definetly have top tier lores
- ok movement: lots of small units with flanking potential, our lance saves the day
- combat will be risky. We need the multicharges and break. only peasants and questing knights will survive getting bogged down for a turn. This is were other armies benefit more than bretts.
Last edited by Digger; June 25th, 2010 at 09:23.
Warchief Diggah o da Bloodmoon Squiggahs
Hey all, been a long time since I graced the Forums here, but with new 8e I felt the need.
At first when I read overviews of 8th I was a bit gutted, things all over the place seemed to weaken our army with Cavalry nerfed and so on.
However, the closer I look the more excited I am! I think the way we play will be slightly different, but on the whole we should still be competative.
Firstly, and one of the most important changes, is Magic. No longer do we have to worry about Really magic heavy armies like Vampires and Deamons completely controlling the magic phase even if we field the almost always necessary duel scroll caddies. with the limit of the number of dice, and also it being RANDOM an army planning for a insanely strong magic phase is going to struggle.
Also, the changes to magic resistance also got a lot better for us. With Damsels and Prohetess its really easy to get magic resistance into our units. The number of times previously I was affected by area effect spells where every unit within 12" got so many hits, which the extra dispell dice had no effect on. With the addition of the MR on to the Blessing we can end up with 5+, 4+ or even 3+ ward saves! Also with the limits on dice, being able to add DD is really more valuable, so the Chalice again is really useful.
The other thing that is perhaps more significant is we now have a viable magic phase!! The lores of Life and Beasts are both really good, with great strong buffs for our characters or units of knights, making them a lot tougher, and even being able to raise our dead! With the staff that gives +1 to life and a prophetess lvl 4 (for not much more than those two obligatory scroll caddies) we can have a decent magic phase. I'll prob run a lvl 4 with life and a lvl 2 with beasts, since the base rule for beasts also gives us +1 to cast pretty much always.
Also, A lot of the things that got nerfed, didn't get as nerfed for brets as they did for everyone else. The lance formation does give us cheap units that can break ranks. Stone throwers got more accurate and damaging, at the expense of strength and armour pen, but as I can see so far, Trebs keep the profile in the book, making them devastating! I love my trebs, and would usually field two before, at the expense of grail knights, but now I can field all three with ease in the points allowance.
I am really liking this edition as a lot of things I like have done really well, one in particular is Questing Knights. These guys I always loved, and now with the return of the +2 strength, and the need for units that can hold and fight for turns they are becoming almost a must have. Ranks and Ranks of bowmen being able to fire takes me back to when I first got into brets and we had the Arrowhead formation, which let all archers fire. We can now have a really effective shooting phase at a really decent range with archers and trebs, making the enemy have to move forward and not castle up waiting for the charge!
The change to the percentages rules also makes some big differences. The hero slots mean we can easily fit in paladins in most of our big blocks to increase the fighting power, and since a lot of the magic in beasts does character buffs and makes them nastier, having a bit of herohammer for us isn't necessarily a bad thing any more. Its something I will experiment with any way. Also the changes to %, especially with Core minimum, is not really going to affect us very much at all, since I think every list I had previously made for 7th was way over the min anyway. However for a lot of other armies they will need to really up the amount of core units or the size of them, which are usually a lot weaker and easier for our knights to kill.
Also the shift to bigger units does also mean FEWER units. big units with nothing on the flanks are easier to manouver around and so will be easier to time and choose our charges as we want.
There are a lot of negatives as well, and some units I am still undecided on, but in stead of focusing on them first I wanted to look at the things I thought had improved.
One thing a lot of people had talked about being really important is big blocks of men at arms, and since these are really cheap its a must to have big units. I am not sure if I agree. I was noseying my friends new skaven book, and couldn’t help but look at Clan rats as a virtually identical stat line. In fact, it is better than ours, with higher initiative, and for cheaper points. I am not saying they are not necessary but until I do some more play testing I am reserving comments. With the extra ranks tho, the Pole arms are now much more usable, in fact stats wise the best option. (annoying as have just converted a load of spear men at arms!)
Pegasus knights have suffered a bit, but again I need to have a proper look at the rules and see how they play from now on. They have some bonuses as well, and also have a higher initiative than our core knights, so could prove useful!
Mounted Yeomen have definitely taken a hit, though may make some pretty good warmachine hunters with a free 12” move at the start. These guys were never the best in combat, may still feature but I’ll have to see.
The Grail reliquary is also suffering from receiving more attacks and being too easy to kill, however the parry from the shield will again add to the blessing, giving a base of 5+ ward, which is actually better than the armour save I think (can’t be removed by strength). These guys with stubborn may stay as a suitable tarpit, or alternative to the Men at arms.
Grail knights are still pretty good, just for the sheer amount of killing power these guys have. Also consider the suplimentary magic that we can get, and even just with the base beasts spell these guys will be strength 7 on the charge, with higher toughness for survivability as well! Not to mention being still able to fit in two trebs and these guys! I am gonna go for a unit of 5 or 6 I think, nothing too big, and make it hard for my enemy to have to chose his targets!
Anyway, these are a few of my thoughts overall at this point. I don’t think we have necessarily done brilliantly out of the new edition, however I don’t think we are gonna be one of the lowest tier races either. I do think the way we play is going to change, and now the all knight army is slightly less viable, and a combined arms bret force will be better, but we do now have the ability to be competitive in every phase of the game, out manouvering, able to have decent magic(yeay, also took another look at the fay enchantress, she is expensive but viable as an option now...) Shooting will be enough of a threat to wittle the enemy down, and scare those big blocks of infantry we all expect to see, a stonethrower with a 1/3 chance of killing 15+ models due to the no partials rule can make one of those 40+ blocks suddenly a lot smaller, and even with the scatter should do some damage. We are also still likely to get charges and should have more control of the battlefield, as a lot of the things that threaten our units like other cav, small flanking units etc, will be less prevalent. There is a lot to wait and see on, but I am overall pretty excited on new edition!
I can't believe noone has said this rule, and I am PRAYING this is a RUMOR...but if your opponent outnumbers you he is stubborn. That is going to hurt me more than anything else. I won/lost one the first phase CC break tests. If my knights have to charge a stubborn block of 30 clanrats...how am I supposed to even compete? Broken.
Armies: 40k: Imperial Guard, Orks Fantasy: Skaven
The rule is if they have more ranks (still need 5 models and 3 for bret lance) mmore than you at the end of combat then they are stubborn. There are several ways to combat this though 2-3 lances of ten ( full when in combat) plus a couple of paladins in there with no items is a garunteed win. Hit flank with at least six knights in a lance to negate ranks as well. Tbh with shootings boost a softening with a couple of shooting units of c. 20 men should get the unit down.
Also remember that the points are the same so where we had 2 lances max into a unit a ten wide you can get 4 ish. Plus they have the same amount of models. I think even horde armies will only pull 2-3 of these units out if they want other stuff.
Yes it's hard but tbh it's a change in tactics from us to defeat the unit.
Also try questing knights. Wounding warriors of chaos on 2's now and reducing their save to 5+ with 6+ ward on the hardest infantry.
Personally I'm not that worried about it as I'll have a 30 man unit of maa as well.