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My buddy was getting into WHF .. and choose bretonnia to try out because he likes the idea of horse's. but after a year of playing now he gave me his army and book and said they are worthless and now that they dont even get to go first from a charge are useless... so my Questions .. is it worth me even dinking around with an army to see if there fun .. because to be hoenst .. i dont see anything cool/ overly fun or even a wow factor in there whole army.
Well ill take the silence as all the response i need
If nothing else keep the minis around until the new book pops up. Rumours say it'll be due late this year or sometime next year.
oh ya .. im not throwing them away .. was just wondering if they were even worth messing around with.. and after 3 days of looking at the book now.. i still dont see anything good since the new 8th rules changed .. seems to have really hurt this army which bread and butter was .. im fast .. ill come in .. go first cuase i charged at extra str and win cuase nothing could fight back .. then over run you .. next .. now you cant . so .. bla
I don't believe there is a lot of competitive use for trying to make Brets work at the moment, but you should definitely wait for the new book. GW has really painted the Brets into a corner with 8th rules. Yes, we know it nerfed all cavalry, but there was no other army that relied on cavalry like the Brets do. So, GW does have probably one of the most daunting tasks ahead in trying to bring the Brets up to par with their next book edition. There have been a lot of suggestions floating around with additional units, this and that, etc. you can find on other threads with thoughts to help poor Bretonnia.
But, it will all boil down to a special heavy cavalry rule for Brets, IMHO. You can't simply add foot knights, more characters, a new warmachine, etc. and expect it to replace the entire mounted knight cavalry core. Otherwise, it will just be Empire in different outfits and that is not why I chose Brets in the first place.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
Brets are very similar to the WoodElves, in that they don't fight the way that they used to, but they are still playable. I wish that I had pics up, and that it wasn't a game in which I was experimenting with my Nippon list, but I do have a bat-rep against a friend who tabled my Nippon army with his Brets, and it wasn't even the nastiest list he could run... by far. I also play Brets, less now in 8th because I have a wide variety of armies at home to choose from, but I do brush the dust off from time to time, and I can say that they're far from unplayable.
Essentially, you have to admit that you have to take Knights of the Realm, and that they have lances, but those are the only lances that you should take. You should also only be grabbing 6 of them, and fielding them in two ranks. This is the biggest boon to Bretonians right now- you no longer need the 'Lance Formation' to get attacks from a rear rank. Honestly, this has made Brets some of the best cavalry in the game (aside from elites like Blood Knights or Chaos Knights), because for the price that most people pay for a single rank of Knights, you're grabbing a regiment that comes in 2 ranks and can therefore disrupt formations and occasionally even cancel steadfast- something that a single rank of knights can't do. The narrow frontage also means that you're going to take fewer attacks in return.
Since you have to take a regiment of these, and you're probably going to want something that can hold a line and escort characters, KotR also make a good anvil, allowing you to use your more expensive Knight regiments in smaller and more agile blocks. If you anvil up, plan on only having 3 ranks of Knights, and subtract any knights who will be replaced by Characters.
So, we need to take KotR, take a regiment of 6 of them, or an anvil of about 9.
Now, we still need to fill out the minimum 25% of our army with Core. This leaves us with two main options, since Cavalry has been so severely nerfed. You can either field Bowmen, or Men at Arms.
Here's the trouble with Bowmen - they have S3 bows, and they're BS3. That means that if they sit still and fire 30 shots at the typical T3 Sv5+ core choice, at the typical long range, they're only going to kill 3 models. Do you see a problem there? They're extremely cheap, which is an offset, and if need be, they can get flaming attacks to help deal with enemies like the HPA or Hyrda.
Now for M@A - biggest downfall? They're WS2. That means little to nothing for outbound attacks actually, because you can still hit WS4 on a 4+. However it means that a lot of people are going to be swinging back on 3's to hit. You're also plagued with low leadership, but that's easily fixed with nearby Knights. Their biggest upside is that they are CHEAP and they come stock with a very healthy weapons loadout in the form of their Halberds. If you need to field 625pts of these guys, you can get a whopping 125 models into the army. The fact that they're S4 is pretty well unheard of for the core of an army. So grabbing hordes of 50 or even a single block of 100 is good enough. Be wary of Dwellers however, as it can rip the heart out of a large regiment. 50-60 is a good minimum for these guys. Give them a banner, and let it be.
So we have your core- a regiment or two of KotR, and two big healthy blocks of M@A or a serious wall of bowmen. Now we need to pad out the army with something USEFUL.
Pegasus Knights - these guys are still good. They do enough damage, they get Stomps now, and they fly. In my friend's list, he ran 2 regiments of them, one regiment of 3 with a Peg.Lord, and another regiment of 4. He used them to hunt down Warmachines, but they were also a constant thorn in my side because they were hovering near enough to my army that they could strike anywhere without warning. Getting them behind an advancing foe is a great tactic. However, if you're running a small block or two of KotR (you have to run at least 1 remember) you can do the same job with them, just without the flying moves.
Questing Knights - these are the real breadwinners of your army. Forget Graile Knights, forget Knights Errant or anything else that has a horse. Why? Because face it- you're not going to break the enemy on the charge, and you're only I3 so you'd better get used to striking last anyways. So why not take advantage of that and go for Great Weapons. In the past, people hated Questing Knights because they could get lance-armed knights for cheaper, and they usually broke the foe on the charge. Not anymore though. Now Questing Knights are your best bet, and thanks to Lance Formation, you're actually going to love them. Imagine, you run 12 Questing Knights, that's about the price that most people run for their Knightstars. But you field yours in 4 ranks, 3 wide. You're getting 6A from the first two ranks, and then another 4A from the ranks in the rear. Not half bad, 10 attacks total, but more importantly, you have 4 ranks to cancel Steadfast, and you're only letting 4-6 enemies attack you back. Now, running these guys straight into the front of the enemy might not be the best idea- you do attack last after all, so he's going to chop you up pretty good before you get to fight. Hitting a flank though will get you into the enemy and utterly decimate them.
I would never run them in such large units- your best option is to go with 9 at a MAXIMUM, depending on how many points you have available.
So now you have an army with some KotR, two beefy blocks of tarpitting M@A, a regiment or two of Pegasus Knights, and filled out with blocks of Questing Knights for damage-dealers. On to your rare slots.
Grail Knights - ok, these guys could be worth it. However, they've got lances, and you need to put them into combat that they'll break through in a single round. They're a bit pricey, so you're probably going to want to cap yourself at the minimal 6 knights in ranks. Cool, so we've got 11 attacks (6 front, 4 sides, 1 second rank supporting) at S6 on the charge, with decent weapon skill. That's admittedly scary. If you included these guys in your army, you'd have them competing with the Questing Knights though. What are you using Questing Knights for? Line-breaking and flank-charge duty. What are you using Grail Knights for? Line breaking and flank charge duty. And you're stuck with KotR so what are you using them for? Probably an anvil (more than 6) or to hunt down small enemy units.
Trebuchet - the Rare that I see fielded most commonly between my friend and myself. If combined with Archers, this can give your army enough of a ranged punch to make the enemy come to you. Which is good, because enemy shooting is less effective when it's moving, and if you have archers, you don't want to walk away from your stakes or put yourself into combat any faster than you have to. However, without archers, these are just an annoyance for your enemy, and an immediate target for his machine-hunters.
So now we're on to characters-
If you're going with multiple Pegasus units, you need a Pegasus Lord. Otherwise, forget about the Bret Lord and go straight for a L4 Damsal, as much for stopping incoming magic, as for grabbing Lore of Life spells to help guarantee that you get Regrowth.
For heroes, keep going slight. It might be worth giving someone the power for Heroic Killing Blow so that they can take care of the big gribblies that you don't want your Knights dealing with. Otherwise, the minimal BSB, and maybe another Damsal for extra magic kick. Scroll up your Damsals, offensive power is pretty limited for these ladies, and it will be more important to stop spells from hitting your expensive knights.
Now, you should have a list that looks something like this:
L4 Damsal and/or Pegasus Lord (only if needed)
L2 Damsal or HKB character
2 units of 6 KotR (or 1 unit and a regiment of Pegs) OR 1 unit of 9 KotR
2 units of either 50 M@A or 2 regiments of Bowmen to fill out the rest of your minimum core
2 regiments of 6 Questing Knights
1 regiment of 3 Peg Knights (2 regiments if you Anvil your KotR)
1-2 regiments of Graile Knights (optional)
2 Trebuchets (if you field Bowmen instead of M@A)
Not up to your full points value yet? MORE QUESTING KNIGHTS, and/or start upgrading units of QKs to GKs if you haven't fielded any yet.
Altogether that's what you've got for an army. Admittedly, the book is lackluster over all, but it's not unplayable, you just have to be a very cautious gamer to get through the battle, and you're fighting for a minor victory or a draw in most games. You can build solid lists, but they're going to be very well honed and tailored to your exact play style. What I've given are the guidelines- it's up to you whether you want to field Pegasus Knights, or the decision between M@A and Bowmen, or whether Graile Knights are worthwhile.
And don't be discouraged when people start rattling off the stats and costs of "equivalent" knights like Blood Knights or Chaos Knights. Yes, those Knights are good, but Knights in a Bret army don't function the same as knights in other armies, especially not now in 8th. Lance Formation is a godsend like never before. You can win games with this army, just go out and start practicing.
Capt said it all..
I love Bretonnia.
I play them at ever level and in tournys and even in those rare SoM games. But my tatics have changed drasticly since 7th. I rely on Prophetesses and Damsel way more that I ever have. My lord builds are always the same. I try to max out my knight units to 12 or 15. I use Questing Knights now, but not offensively. Less pesants bu they still have their purpose.
I think the issue is that there's almost no way to build an OPed list so its hard to compete with other OPed list. But sound tactics can beat OPed list, IMO.
They are worth playing now, though more so when the new book comes out. Yes they got nerfed, but if you know how to build a list and place your units right you can still get charges on turn one, turn 2 at the latest. I have done very well with my Brets in 8th ed, I run RAF list. Dont forget, almost all your knights are tanks (except PK and WK) what i mean is 2+ armor and a 5+ or 6+ ward. They are hard to kill.
Like any other army there are what if scenarios and all that. But first rule of warhammer (IMO) is to play an army you like.
Me I like traditional medieval knights, i like the army look, i like brets.
"For Plunder and Women!"
Bretonnians 7500, Empire 3300, Dwarfs 4800; Space Marines 2000, Tyranids 3000
my brets are all but undefeated in my gaming group. i wont fight dwarf gun lines because i also play dwarfs and it would just be a deploy and pick up game in my mind so i guess i will yield that in my record.
this army is amazing. the speed you get from a all or nearly all mounted army and the semi to cheap drops like yeoman, trebs, archers and Pegasus knights makes deploying tactically easy and it also easy to not let them know where your knights are going till the last minute. you cant play this army with nothing but knights and i didn't like blocks smaller then 9 from shooting, magic and going last close-combat but man to see my knights roll people in three turn is priceless.
terrain is going to be hell if your not careful but don't be afraid of it. If your opponent puts a river across the middle you have the right to punch him in the face. i have lost more knights from trees and rivers then my enemy several times. this can also sometimes lead to them thinking that will keep them safe from a side charge..... fat chance!
this army is underestimated from the armies age and all this talk about weak cavalry rules. i never played with 7th ed. cav but we aren't in 7th ed. anymore todo. the speed, mobility and the the fact that only ogres and specially built sticking pointy ear armies can keep up. if the pointy ears try to match your speed, your combat will almost always be better cause this army is designed for it.
it is a a hard army to learn to play if you your used to ether sitting back or infantry. when i first started i would always march just because i was use to movement 3..... killed few of my men that way.
the fighting characters are sub-pair in my eyes for there cost but the prophetess are gold. magic Resistance 1 or 2 makes magics less scary even the lore of metal . regenerating your cav or using the buffs and hexs of heavens also can decide many a battle. the chalice is must if y0ou want magic defense.
the knights errant are worthless. the teenage bullheadedness means they will always be taking leadership test from first turn to see if there hormones gets the better of them. knights of the realm are my bread and butter. they are great for there cost from what i have seen and researched. questing knights i have never tried and don't think i will. just not my style with the one weaker Armour but to each his own. grail knights are must in my eyes. they have shattered many an enemy for me and i will not play without them till less 1000 points. I 5 means you can go first and they can go toe-toe with chaos knights from my experiences. i dingt like them at first for there cost and instead just tried the KotR but they just dont do the same damage even when the have equal points of each.
Men of Arms are fun to field in hordes with no command for there cheapness. they are great fro locking up anything i have run into just need a knight nearby to give them some spine when it gets messy.
archers just don't do it for me but 30 range is nice. yeoman are great. not for fighting but for harassment, slowing down your drops, and attempting to get frenzied units to charge out into a beautiful charge spot and angle. they can kill only siege engines and small blocks of archers of skinks but they are cheap light cav so that is all i ever excepted from them. Pegasus knights are the best flying cav in the game. hands down. they will survive any roll to hit shooting i have seen and be a challenge to anything that isn't a block of infantry.
trebs could be the best stone throwers to cost i have seen, better then dwarf by far in my mind. great for a lucky monster smashing and crushing even chaos warrior blocks with str 5 templates.
i know this is long and if i forgot something sorry. if i messed up somewhere as well please tell!
I love my Bretonnians, but I picked up Eldar for the time being before the new book comes out. They work in friendly matches to an extent. I'd prefer to play as my Lizardmen if I was going to play fantasy. Unfortunately, i only have about 1250 points of them.