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Hey Bretonnian Generals:
I am a long time (13 years) 40K player and am finally ready to give fantasy a whirl. I am interested in possibly playing a Bretonnian army and I thought I'd let you folks sell me on why I should be excited about Bretonnians...
Thanks for your posts.
http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ead.php?t=8849 (Thinking Of Starting Bretonnians?)
Read that thread... Bretonnians are fun, but they can be a bit linear.. Not many tactics if you go for a knight army, though they look great on the field. If you like their chivalric fluff, and the models then go for it.
I'd say it depends on your play style, and painting style weather you'll like the Bretonnians or not. Playing Bretonnians is all about getting a good charge with Knights, you can't rely on your shooting or your magic. The ward save is key, people always get so mad when I fail a +2 save and then make a +6 ward save. You've been playing for a couple of years so you might like the different styles that you can come up with for your Knights. I've recently decided to do different national flags for mine. Painting Knights takes a long time compaired to painting up your run of the mill foot troops. It's also difficult to learn how to quarter, and paint straight lines on the horses barding. The new models help out a lot more than the old 5th ones. Another problem area I've run into is transporting my Army. With so many mounted models, I had to go to making a box just to carry them. The GW case isn't the greatest for mounted models, especially the new Pegasai. Over the coarse of playing you'll run into a lot of broken lances, I wish GW would just make them out of metal. Once you finish your army though, it looks great on the field.
One major difference between 40K and Fantasy is the crux of the game:
the heart of 40K lies in effective management of shooting before entering into assault, if you even assault at all. Whereas the heart of Fantasy is maneuvering. You can have the toughest troops in the world, but if they get out of position and you are clumsy with their movements, they will get picked apart.
When playing Fantasy, the thought processes you go through are similar to chess, trying to predict and plan against the movements of your opponent.
As for your selection of armies:
The Brettonians tend to be rather one-dimensional. There are plenty of close-combat oriented armies with little to no shooting or magic, but the Brettonians rely nearly exclusively on their impressive charging ability. In some circles, the Brettonians are derided as a beginner's army or even a girlfriend's army. (Present company, please pardon the generalization)
However, as every knight is unique, no army looks as nice and brightly colored on the tabletop. Since knights are obviously an expensive unit, you have fewer of them and you can spend more time painting them nicely, without feeling overwhelmed at the prospect of painting a hundred of them. (like Orc or Skaven players )
WHFB: Dwarfs || WH40k: Imperial Fists, Necrons || WM/H: Trollbloods || BFG: Necrons
What are the magic heavy armies? I already have 3 CC 40K armies that depend on the charge... maybe I should skip another in Fantasy.
High Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven, and Undead are magic heavy.
Another big difference is the quality of your troops. In 40K you use so many high strength weapons that they'll pretty well wound anything on +2. In fantasy you've got a lot more close combat, and so it makes a big difference if you can hit on 3 instead of 4, and wound on 3, or 4. The average strength and toughness is 3, but if your charging with a lance (Bretonnians) or using a halberd your strength increases to get you that 2 or 3 to wound.
By and large, the short-and-sweet (and generalized) summaries of the lists available are thus:
Beasts of Chaos: Close combat skirmishing, ambushers
Brettonians: charge until you can't charge no more
Dark Elves: can be combat oriented or magic oriented, but not very defensive oriented
Dogs of War: very rare, can be prety much anything
Dwarfs: generally, Dwarfs are played slow, armored, and shooty
Empire: can be played any way, not super-strong in magic, though, great shooting
High Elves: just about the most versatile list out there.
Hordes of Chaos: no shooting, generally fast and hard-hitting
Lizardmen: great magic supported by resilient, hard-hitting troops
Ogres: careful maneuvering into charge range, can dish it out, but can't take it
Orcs & Goblins: a hard-hitting, unpredictable horde with hard-hitting, unpredictable magic
Skaven: an expendable horde protecting powerful guns
Tomb Kings: powerful, unique magic supporting fragile fear-causing units
Vampire Counts: powerful combat units leading fragile fear-causing units
Wood Elves: Skirmishing, ambushing shooters supporting some good magic and hitters
WHFB: Dwarfs || WH40k: Imperial Fists, Necrons || WM/H: Trollbloods || BFG: Necrons
Quickasawink pretty much sumarized in accurately, but I must add that in fantasy, shooting is not nearly as effectice because in most circumstances bows are strength 3 (lasguns) and the powerful stuff in guns and cannons, artillery, stone and bolt throwers, etc..... High elves (which I recomend even though I'm a lizardmen player) have very fast cavalry, solid phalanxes of spearmen that fight in an extra rank to normal spearmen, hard hitting units like chariots, the famous, or imfamous repeater bolt thrower, nice scouts, heavy cavalry, nice flyers, a selection of terror causing beats and are up there as one of the best magic armies with Lizardmen, both Undeads, Tzeench Chaos and... umm....Yeah.
The downside of high elves (and all elves +scaven and other armies) is their survivability so these armies are a bit harder to play. (unless you play all cavalry) Armies that most people consider easy are Bretonnia, Chaos (esspecially Khorne) and Lizardmen amongst others, dwarves are getting updated as I speak and their pretty good too, they have the best artillery supported by the infantry that is hardest to break and their toughness is higher than average, as is there save. The things that dwarves lack are Magic, Anything that moves fast (with one exception) and anything fear or terror causing (no monsters) but they make up for this with potent runes and such......
Tenozuma - The Burninator... I came, I saw, I posted.Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
Dark Eldar player.
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Originally Posted by warPEZ
Well, let's see about good magic armies:
First and foremost, the High Elves.
Claimed to have underpowered infantry (which to an extent is indeed true), they certainly are a powerful opponent when it comes to magic. While the magic power of some armies works by simply overwhelming the opponent with a tidal wave of spells (Lizzies, for example), the High Elven approach is different: They simply decide that the enemy doesn't cast anymore, and the enemy pretty damn certainly won't cast much anything anymore - High Elves are the masters of magic suppression.
Seer Honour - The mage can choose which spells to know instead of rolling for them - this allows for strategies that revolve around very specific spells or combinations of spells
Lore selection - High Elves have the biggest Lore selection of the entire game: Their Wizards can choose from High Magic or any of the eight Lores from the rulebook
Magic Suppression - An innate +1 to Dispel, the possibility of taking the Staff of Sorcery (increasing the bonus to +2), and the excellent magic suppression spells of the High Lore mean that High Elves can rule the magic phase if they so wish.
Cheap Magic Items - Pretty self-explanatory. High Elven magic items are cheaper than the equivalents of the other races, or have added benefits at same cost. Some noteworthy ones are the Banner of Sorcery (Generates Power Dice), the magic rings and Banner of Arcane Protection (Slaughters any Undead/Daemons in base contact with the unit carrying the standard). Oh, and the Book of Hoeth which grants a High Elven Archmage insane magic power.
Second, the servants of the Old Ones: Lizardmen
Lizardman magic won't begin to shine until the 2000pt mark - Why? Because their Skink Priests are nothing special, just normal Wizards. But at 2000pt...
Enter the Slann. These bulbous toads are pretty much the best spellcasters in the entire game, and the power of Lizardmen magic phase is Slann-centric.
The strengths of the Slann:
- +1 to Cast AND to Dispel
- Can be immune to Miscasts (The event when the spell fails. Should be akin to a Perils of the Warp attack)
- 2nd Generation Slann get a free extra dice to cast each spell - this means that their average single-die cast is an 8 (3.5 basic, 3.5 extra die, +1 to Cast)
- Drain Magic spell from the High Magic list
- Can mix and match spells from different Lores (ie. is not restricted to a single Lore)
- All Lores from the rulebook, but no unique Lore
As you can see, the Lizardmen magic phase focuses much on raw magic power, and that they have in overwhelming amounts. Also worth noting is the Cube of Darkness, a magic item that can put an end to the enemy magic phase without them being able to do anything about it.
Druchii magic can be summed up in one word: Offensive.
Strengths of the Dark Elves:
+1 to Cast
Lore selection - Dark Elves have access to Dark Magic (an offensive Lore that can, among other things, inhibit the opponent's shooting) and the Lores of Death (blaster Lore) and Shadows (tactical magic in the form of shooting protection, movement spells and such)
Nexct up is Chaos
Chaos magic is hard to sum up - it's so versatile. Chaos spellcasters are not exceptionally skilled in their craft like Elves or Slann are - their power lies in the powerful Lores granted to them by their gods, or, in the case of Tzeentch, the insane amount of Power Dice they can muster. Without further ado,
Strengths of the magic of the Dark Gods:
-pretty much normal magic, though the spellcasters are tougher than normal and can actually fight a bit. Items worth noting are from the Beasts of Chaos book: The Goretooth (makes the caster a melee monster) and the Staff of Darkoth (Movement spell)
Moving your troops is good - controlling the enemy's movement is even better!
The Lore of Pain and Pleasure is held as one of the best Lores of the game for a reason:
It can make enemy units move where they do not want to, turn the hardiest units into utter punching bags, punch through heavy armour with a short-ranged Magic Missile - it has versatility and tactical power.
Nurgle magic is focused on weakening the enemy, or blasting Knights to pieces with armour-ignoring magic missiles, whichever way your prefer it. Nurgle spellcasters also have access to the Plague Chalice, which is pretty much a 1-turn version of the Book of Hoeth.
The Lore of Change is, as it's very name implies, highly unpredictable. At one time, a magic missile might struggle to wound a Skink or Halfling, the next time be tearing a unit of Chosen Knights of Chaos to pieces with ease. The sorcerers and shamen of Tzeentch are the fighting characters of the army given magic power - Thus they are capable both in combat and arts arcane. This does tend to make them rather costly, however.
Tzeentch armies are unique in a way - the units themselves generate Power Dice for the spellcasters, so they can unleash even more magical death on the enemy. The servants of the Changer of Ways also have access to perhaps the best of second-best magic item in the game - The Staff of Change which makes it more likely to cast or dispel any spell and pretty much avoids miscasts and misdispels.
While one may not think at first that the brutish orcs and weedy Goblins would be great spellcasters, that belief is soon dispelled as the greenskinks unleash their spells.
Greenskin magic is volatile, very much so. Their spellcasters have a higher risk of blowing their head off than ANY other mage in the game. As a compensation, their magic is powerful (with an unreal dose of luck, one spell could potentially wipe out an entire army in a single cast) and varied (Few are the things not found in the two Lores of the Greenskins). Goblin Wizards are cheap, Orc wizards are tough. Both can bring the enemy to their knees. The choice is yours.
Finally, the Undead
When you look at an Undead army, you see normal Wizards, pretty strong fighting characters and horribly expensive Goblin-grade rank and file troops. Overall, the Undead look weak, relying on a elite unit or two and fighting characters to defeat the entire enemy army.
One couldn't be more wrong. The strength and, indeed, the very lifeblood of Undead armies is their magic: Their fighters are weak and die like flies, can't march well or at all, and so on. Bring in magic. Suddenly, the walking dead are as fast as any others, every goblin-grade skeleton you kill rises back to the fray, and mighty vampires and undead kings of old carve a swathe through your troops.
The Vampire Counts resemble a combination of Elves and Chaos -
Like Chaos, the might of their magic is in the Lore, not raw casting power. They also have no shooting.
Like elves, they are expensive and frail (Although, unlike elves, they are slow and can't hit the broad side of a barn even if they stood right next to it)
Bring in Necromantic Magic. Skeletons and Zombies sprout from the ground like there's no tomorrow,and dance around the battlefield in a series of flank charges. Suddenly, your troops are outnumbered by the walking dead, run away in fear and are caught and cut down. Necromantic Magic is perhaps the best Lore in the game.
The Tomb Kings have a different approach - while their magic does much the same things that the magic of the Vampire Counts, they focus on reliability instead of power.
Unless dispelled, a spell cast by a TK player always succeeds, no matter what.
The TK can't create new units, but, unlike the VC, if their elites get killed, they will rise back to the fray just like their lesser Skeleton brethren. Even more than the VC, they rely on magic to win the game.
One final advantage of the Undead is that, like Tzeentchians, their warrior characters can cast (All Lord-level Undead characters are capable of magic. Hero-level Vampires can't cast spells, but Tomb Princes (TK's fighting-oriented Hero) can work magic).
Whew, talk about a long post (at least it seems to be long in the editing window.)
Hope that helps.
Use Light, Beasts, Metal instead of Heavens
NecroLords: Use at least one Death Mage
Brets: Use Peasants&Damsels
Skaven: Don't use Skryre SAD
Wow, thank you for the long post. I think my list is whittled down to this:
1. Dark Elves
2. High Elves
3. Orcs and Goblins
4. Vampire Counts
but most liekly I'll play the Dark Elves. They have the Magic and a great variety of troops and their models are stunning. I still want to be the High Elves and they sound really awesome, but those darker elves just look so much cooler!