FEAR FEAR The musical fruit.... TKs are hard to handle - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Junior Member Greatmoonzini's Avatar
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    FEAR FEAR The musical fruit.... TKs are hard to handle

    How do you deal with fear causing TK armies... or how do you deal with a TK army in general. I can't seem to field an army that is effective at all against them.

    1. Too much magic to handle.
    2. Can't handle most units in static combat.
    3. Psychology
    4. Autobreaking from CR.
    5. GAHHH!!

    Witch Hunters/SOB (WIP) 5W - 2D - 2L
    Bretonnians (WIP) 14W - 2D - 8L

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  3. #2
    Member Bad Hat Harry's Avatar
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    The answers here assume a mainly cavalry army.

    "1. Too much magic to handle."
    Aside from the standard response of fielding a scroll caddy (a Damsel w/2 Dispel Scrolls), judicious use of your dispel dice is the key. Tomb Kings only have four spells. I wouldn't bother wasting dice on either the magic missile or the extra attack/extra shot spells. As a Bretonnian, you've got a good chance of beating the magic missile spell. Playing the odds, and assuming that the TK rolls 6 hits, four hits wound, three wounds are armor saved, and the last one may be ward saved if you've prayed at the beginning like you should. That's the worst case scenario - one wound. If there are any fewer hits, things work out even better.

    Same goes for the extra attack/shot spell. Ten TK shots will result in 2, maybe 3 hits. One or two of them may wound, & armor/ward should stop those. TK's generally low Initiative should mean that their attacks go last, and, at any rate, rank & file TK are no match for even a Knight Errant. The only time I'd attempt to dispel this spell is if it's cast on a charging unit.

    The movement spell is the worst of the four & should be dispelled if it makes a unit charge yours.

    The regen spell should be cancelled as circumstances warrant. Keeping them from having gigantic units is probably cause to dispel. However, if they're just trying to rebuild a dying unit, don't bother. As a caveat, this analysis doesn't take into account bound spells.

    Finally, if mages are giving you a hard time, hunt them down. Attack their units & target them specifically. If they're on their own, chase them down with Pegasus Knights; undead can't flee, so being alone is particularly dumb.

    "2. Can't handle most units in static combat/4. Autobreaking from CR"
    These seem to be related topics; if you can't handle units in static combat, you'll autobreak from the combat resolution. A couple things spring to mind.

    Banner of the Lady: Eliminate your opponent's rank bonus.
    Virtue of Discipline: Prevent them from getting a weight bonus.
    Virtue of Duty: +1 CR if the General is alive.
    Flank charges with Pegasus Knights/Mounted Yeomen as support.
    Grail Knights: Immune to Psych.
    Expand Frontage: If you win a round of combat, you're allowed to expand your frontage by up to five models. Starting with models in the back rank, expand the frontage to maximize the number of attacks.

    Just a reminder, your Knights have a Unit Strength of two each. A unit of 9 Knights has a US of 18, so it shouldn't take too much to bring their numbers in line.

    "3. Psychology"
    I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean the trouble Bretonnians may have with charging fear causing units, remember Grail Knights (again). Also, you may want to invest in the Valorous Standard, to make sure you can pass those tests.

    "5. GAHHH!!"
    I think you mean WAAAUUUGH!!! That's the Orcs & Goblins forum. Two doors down on your right.

    Hope that helps,
    Bad Hat Harry

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    if the fear is stopping you from charging then change out you knights of the realm for some knights errant. There immune to psycology on the charge so no wories about them not being able to charge.

  5. #4
    Member The_other_guy's Avatar
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    1. Too much magic to handle.
    I think he means that all tomb kings, princes and liche priests can cast magic, and most bret armies are not that anti magic. And TK never use they magic missile more likey extra moves og getting they catapult to fire again and no armour in the games is going to help your knigths there!

    2. Can't handle most units in static combat/4. Autobreaking from CR
    Killing undead with bret sucks they never break (run) and they wont stay down (I don't care if they respawn or there just get a new bunch). And if you knight get stuck in a big blok of skeletons, you have a problem!
    Bad hat harry is rigth there is a lot of magic banner's/ items that help you to win combat, but giving all your unit them is to expensive!!! You can't wont have unit or the number in those unit to win then...

    3. Psychology.
    All that don't have it hates fear! bret's Ld is okay high and you have a chance of failing (like 40% with Ld .

    5. GAHHH!!"
    The biggest problem you can get is that TK can be fast and bret's knigth power is in the charges, that is where the 101 powerlevel spell is going to hurt most.

    Only really good think about undead is they suck and cost too many points.

  6. #5
    LO Zealot Spector's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_other_guy View Post
    1. Too much magic to handle.
    I think he means that all tomb kings, princes and liche priests can cast magic, and most bret armies are not that anti magic. And TK never use they magic missile more likey extra moves og getting they catapult to fire again and no armour in the games is going to help your knigths there!

    First off, I wouldn't say that most Bret armies are poor at anti magic. Quite the contrary in fact, most Bretonnian armies have solid anti magic. Also, if your having a problem with TK magic (yes there is alot of it) then your likely wasting DD/Scrolls on the wrong spells. I do play TK and the spell that you likely need to dispel before any other is the movement spell when it will deny your knights the charge. Otherwise, the biggest thing you need to worry about is SSCs firing twice per turn, and the Casket of Souls if they have it.

    2. Can't handle most units in static combat/4. Autobreaking from CR
    Killing undead with bret sucks they never break (run) and they wont stay down (I don't care if they respawn or there just get a new bunch). And if you knight get stuck in a big blok of skeletons, you have a problem!
    Bad hat harry is rigth there is a lot of magic banner's/ items that help you to win combat, but giving all your unit them is to expensive!!! You can't wont have unit or the number in those unit to win then...

    Well, your going to have a problem if your just haphazardly charging into units and not thinking about the charge and how it will play out before you do it. Charging a unit of KotR into a block of 20 skeletons without support and expecting them to wipe out the skeletons in 2 turns is stupid. Use combined charges, men-at-arms, Questing Knights and Pegasus Knights to help you clear these units faster. Besides, having Men-at-arms or Questing Knights bogged down with skeletons is fine.

    3. Psychology.
    All that don't have it hates fear! bret's Ld is okay high and you have a chance of failing (like 40% with Ld .

    Knights Errant are fearless on the charge, Questing Knights get rerolls on psych, and Grail Knights are immune. Also, you can stay within range of your General/BSB to help with tests. If you know before hand your playing TK, there is no excuse for not being able to deal with fear. If your playing an tourney list and get matched up with TK, your list should still have some method to deal with this. If not, then proper preporation probably wasn't taken before hand.

    5. GAHHH!!"
    The biggest problem you can get is that TK can be fast and bret's knigth power is in the charges, that is where the 101 powerlevel spell is going to hurt most.

    101 powerlevel spell??? What?

    Only really good think about undead is they suck and cost too many points.

    If by suck you mean they have poor stats such as WS, BS, and I then yes, that is true to an extent. However if by suck you mean their army preforms poorly, then your sadly mistaken. Tomb Kings are one of the most tactically demanding/rewarding armies out there at the moment (along with WE in my opinion) and when played well can be bordering on difficult/impossible to defeat. They are definately a strong army and do not 'suck,' they just require a playstyle that most players aren't used to.
    Not to sound critical, but if you could touch up the spelling/grammer some it would make your comments alot easier to read. However in saying this I know that not everyone on this board's first language is English so that is taken into consideration as well.

    @ Greatmoonzini:

    Yes Tomb Kings can indeed be a touch nut to crack. Bad Hat Harry however does give some good advice on some of the problems you had with them. Also another thing you can do is to browse through the TK Army Book and take a look at unit stats and their special abilities. With a better understanding of the TK army, you will get a better understanding of its weaknesses and how to exploit them.
    Last edited by Spector; June 12th, 2007 at 18:43.

  7. #6
    Member The_other_guy's Avatar
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    Sorry about the spelling. English is not my first language (but if you like it in danish)

    "Knights Errant are fearless on the charge, Questing Knights get rerolls on psych"
    It is not the charging round you will lose. And remember if you lose and are outnumbered you will flee.

    I play TK and Bretonnia, and normally I would have almost the same amount of numbers of units in my armies.
    I don't really get how you will get "Use combined charges, men-at-arms, Questing Knights and Pegasus Knights" agains one of his units, I am asuming that the other player is thinking too.

    101 powerlevel ok ok more like 5, plus bounditems... but still most bret armies has 2 damsel that is like 4 Dispels dice.

    "Only really good think about undead is they suck and cost too many points."
    "If by suck you mean they have poor stats such as WS, BS, and I then yes, that is true to an extent"
    You the nail, I was thinking about skeletons and other core undead stats.

  8. #7
    Consumate professional Sir Theobold the Lame's Avatar
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    TK are indeed a tough nut to crack, if used correctly they are a very powerful opponent.

    I think the key is going for their weaknesses- if you can kill their Liche priests their troops will start to crumble and they wont be able to regenerate troops.

    If it was me id take Grail Knights and Pegasus knights to try and target the TK leaders, also use the peasant archers with stakes to negate impact hits from chariots- then just hope the dice gods are looking favourable at me that day!
    PLAN CLAN MAN!!

    He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man- S. Johnson

  9. #8
    Senior Member farmergiles65's Avatar
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    1. Too much magic to handle.

    Take a Level 4 magic user with 4 dispel scrolls, u shut us down completely and any spells we do get through won't really do much as theres a lot of luck involved with skull catapaults/archers!

    2. Can't handle most units in static combat.

    What?!?! Tomb Kings troops suck in CC and because they have to fork out loads of points on heroes just to make the army even legal let alone viable we barely have enough troops to outnumber you or do seperate combo charges! Besides none of their troops can penetrate your indestructible armour save and on the charge you decimate at least 50% of the unit!

    3. Psychology

    You have plenty enough items/special rules handed to you that make psychology not a problem.

    4. Autobreaking from CR.

    The amount of wounds your typical horse unit with a paladin in does in contrast to the zero wounds that skeletons will do your indestructible armour save means you won't lose on CR!

    5. GAHHH!!

    Over-reacting! You're playing Bretonnians man! Take enough dispel ability to neutralize the magic phase or at least most of it and TK just fail after that. Afterwards do what your army does best.............charge!

  10. #9
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    If the battle is large take a level 4 mage, but if its less then 3000 pts. dont worry about the magic and just dispell key spells. They only have 2 spells that matter and only the movement spell is going to cause any kind of serious pain. The res one only brings up a couple models its not nearly as good as the one for VC so dont worry that much about it, one scroll cady should be enough to handle the worst of it.

    Take a unit of pegs, they will perform nicely and can make the enemy worry about his mages.

    Only take one unit of realm, make the rest of your basic knights KE, as stated by others they are impetuous and will ignore fear on the turn they charge. Take all your knights in large blocks of 9, you will do more damage this way and it means less panic tests all around.

    Take atleast 2 units of Questing knights, yes 2, and make em big units of 9, expencive i know but its neccessary, they are the only ones who retaing there strength after turn 1, might consider putting em in ranks of 5 rather than lance so that you get more attacks in second and third turn.

    Grail knights are ofcourse a great unit to have as they are in all games, as others have mentioned they are imune to psych

    The reasons why undead armies are easier than they look for brets, and are not as hard as they appear:
    1.a unit of 9 knights without a hero will on average will kill 5 skeletons through the knights and will kill 2 or 3 with the horses. So against a unit of 25 skeletons (im highballing it usually they can only afford units of 20) you kill 7 they kill none, you each have 2 ranks, you each have a banner, you each have a unit strength of 18, you win by 7. That means youve just killed 14 skeletons. Add a bsb or a heroe to the unit and youve killed almost the whole unit. I dont think theyll be regenerating that type of damage quickly.
    2. theyre regen spell isnt that great they dont get a ton of skellies back
    3. fear is only good as long as they outnumber you. They wont outnumber for very long against 9 knights
    4. questing knights will continue to pound TK to dust even after the first turn
    5.its amazing how quickly they die after they lose their main wizard

    all and all dont worry about it. Your knights can pound em to the ground if you win combat by enough, which you often will.
    Last edited by ducky11; July 2nd, 2007 at 21:29.

  11. #10
    LO Zealot MobiusPrime's Avatar
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    Wow. I actually makes me really happy to see this thread. I'm a TK player that has to play Bretts occassionally, and all I see once we put our armies on the table is that my opponent is going to be down my throat on turn two and there's not a whole lot I can do to stop him. It's nice to know that some Brett players have a tough time fighting TKs too.


    At any rate, here's some tips on beating the Tomb Kings:

    1. Mage hunt. One of our greatest strengths is our magic. If you can kill even one mage, you'll stunt our effectiveness in this phase severely. Paladins on pegasai is ideal for this roll.

    2. Avoid skeleton blocks. You have the speed, use it. If you're charging knights into skeletons when there's other viable targets, you're playing into the Tomb King player's hands. He wants you to charge his block so you get bogged down and then get flanked by his nasty Ushabti/Chariots/Giant. If you're going to fight skeletons, either hit him with so much that you totally decimate the unit in one round (it only takes one skeleton to hold up a unit of knights for the devestating counter charge), or feed them a static five unit of Men at Arms. Especially avoid skeletons if there's a Prince or King in the unit.

    3. Dispell priority - 1. Smite on a Screaming Skull Catapult, 2. Urgency on any hammer unit (Ushabti/Chariots/Giant), 3. the Light of Death (situation based), 4. Healing, everything else is low priority for you to dispell. Remember, Tomb King magic is relentless but it's also predictable. The casters have to go in a specific order and fighting characters are limited in the spells they can use. Try to imagine what is coming next, and if the current spell is worth dispelling rather than the next spell.

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