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  1. #1
    Member Black Hawk's Avatar
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    Fighting CSMs with CSMs, Tricky?

    You bet! I've had the codex for about a month now, and with heavy screamo and punk metal blasting out of speakers behind me, i've lost myself for hours in a blur of fuigures and didgits trying to make a list that can potentioaly bring itself to its knees. Intentionaly.

    My friend collects chaos marines, and it was he that inspired me to collect them to. Only now have I realised how that it is nearly impossiable to make a list that can with withstand a foe of the same race. Every unit I can take, he also has access to. Every tank I take he can obliterate (excuse the pun). Every wity tactic I excecute, he can counter. Battles of this nature (CSM vs CSM) boil down to 2 things, you only win if: You get the charge in a combat, and you have AP3.

    I know In his 1500 list he will be taking a defiler, a vindicator, 2 oblits, 2 fully beefed CSM squads and a squad of rubrics. He also told me hes added a termi squad for extra bite, but of the exact config of the squad is unknown to me.

    Here is my list:

    Daemon Prince (155)
    Wings
    MoS
    Lash of Submission
    OR
    Wings
    Warptime

    Daemon Prince (155)
    Wings
    MoS
    Lash of Submission
    OR
    Wings
    Warptime

    10x CSM (235)
    Asp Champion - Power Wep
    Plasma Gun
    Melta Gun
    IoCG
    Rhino - Havoc Launcher

    10x CSM (235)
    Asp Champion - Power Wep
    Plasma Gun
    Melta Gun
    IoCG
    Rhino - Havoc Launcher


    10x Zerkers (260)
    Rhino - Havoc Launcher

    2x OBLITERATOR (150)

    2x Vindicator (250)

    TOTAL= 1500


    It may be worth posting that this list is supposed to be KO material, even though I will use it for fun games, my main opponent doesnt see any sense in sacraficing pwnage for "fun". Plz, turn me into a power gamer =]

    Last edited by Black Hawk; March 1st, 2009 at 14:28.

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  3. #2
    Member HybridChaos's Avatar
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    wouldn't the oblits in seperate cults take up a total of 4 HS slots?

    And imo the IoK on basic marines is pointless, I'd slug IoCG or nothing

    termi sorc's are a nice touch, you have two lash's and 7 templates a go, very nice =]
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  4. #3
    Senior Member SilentNinja's Avatar
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    Turn the sorcerors into Princes so you can eat his marines up.

    Also the Lash List isn't an auto win button.
    If you're Ordanance don't hit then you are down.
    Go for a more balanced build so that you can counter his tactics.

    On the ten mans switch the HB for another MG.
    Lose the IoK for the IoCG
    Lose all the havoc launchers for either TLB or combi-somethings for more versatility.
    Then you need a champ with a fist on all three units.
    That will eat up marines real good.
    If you can add Plasma Guns on the PMs.

    Yeah you can't single the Oblits if you have 2 Defilers as well.
    "When Blood Speaks, Shadows Answer."




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    Member Black Hawk's Avatar
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    Ty for the feedback! =]

    I just have a few things to say about your comments, most of which were very useful but there were a few that I disagree with:

    IoK on CSMs, lets face it, CSMs are CC orientated. Whats wrong with giving them 40 atks on the charge?

    Also, in my test trials my HBs have prooved to be increadably useful for holding objectives. I dont realy see the points in 2 MGs in 1 squad, if your close enough to use a melta and it fails, you can still charge & Krak.

    My last disagreement is with princes instead of sorcs. They dont benifit from Icons when they DS, they dont have independant charecter and their CC attacks cant dish out instant death.


    Otherwise, comments were veryu usefull. I now realise my list took up 4HS slots, so I will swap the defilers for 4 oblits. This gives me 6 oblits in 3 cults, this means he can wave his vindi and defilers away.

    One last question, are 28 troops realy enough to hold me together in objective matches?

  7. #5
    Senior Member Deathklaat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Hawk View Post
    Ty for the feedback! =]

    I just have a few things to say about your comments, most of which were very useful but there were a few that I disagree with:

    IoK on CSMs, lets face it, CSMs are CC orientated. Whats wrong with giving them 40 atks on the charge?

    Also, in my test trials my HBs have prooved to be increadably useful for holding objectives. I dont realy see the points in 2 MGs in 1 squad, if your close enough to use a melta and it fails, you can still charge & Krak.

    My last disagreement is with princes instead of sorcs. They dont benifit from Icons when they DS, they dont have independant charecter and their CC attacks cant dish out instant death.


    Otherwise, comments were veryu usefull. I now realise my list took up 4HS slots, so I will swap the defilers for 4 oblits. This gives me 6 oblits in 3 cults, this means he can wave his vindi and defilers away.

    One last question, are 28 troops realy enough to hold me together in objective matches?
    i will counter disagree with you.

    why pay for IoK on regular CSM who are inferior to Khorn Bezerkers, sure they are a bit more expensive but they are well worth the points. not to mention they get special abilities and are fearless which would make the IoCG on the standar CSM pointless.

    meltas are great for vehicles, IC and elite units, they are still assault weps which allow you to still charge in. the high STR and low AP pretty much instakill anything.

    a DP is immune to ID, a sorc or lord is not. a DP is a MC, read your rules on MC in assault, their attacks do not get saves.

    as for your last question, yes 28 is perfectly fine for objective games; that is if you play Death Guard like I do and use nothing but Plague Marines with Feel No Pain.
    May the "Nurgley Goodness" protect you!

  8. #6
    Member Kendowned's Avatar
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    I counter disagree your counter disagreement ... no sorry just wanted to say that
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathklaat View Post
    why pay for IoK on regular CSM who are inferior to Khorn Bezerkers, sure they are a bit more expensive but they are well worth the points. not to mention they get special abilities and are fearless which would make the IoCG on the standar CSM pointless.
    i have to agree with Deathklaat here CSM with IoK are inferior to khorne beserkers your paying 250 points for your CSM squads when you could just have 10 khorne with a skull champ and PF and rhino for 265 and your geting fearless,WS5, furious charge. i dont realy undestand why your puting heavy bolters in your groups when there going in rhino's puting IoK on ur squad is totaly wasted if your just going to sit back and shoot with the HB and if u want to go out and pwn in CC you not going to be able to use the HB swap for a PG mabie for the you could use 1k sons they are great aganced MEQ's with AP 3 weapons i suggest going for 2 KB squads, 1 1k son and a normal csm with HB and IoKG
    Chaos are not evil just missunderstood.
    when the chaos gods offered horus gummy bears he could not refuse the offer of betraying the Emperor.

  9. #7
    Member Black Hawk's Avatar
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    I counter disagree with whoever disagreed with that person who i dissagreed with! =]

    I get what you are saying about not being able to mince CC and use a heavy bolter, but did it ever occur to any CSM player that we have to be versitile? Let me elaborate: In an ongoing campaign Iplan to play with my CSM friend soon, (I will actualy play him with my necrons, but this is just an example). Our first battle will be based around objectives. In an objective battle, heavy bolters provide long-range anti troop fire, perfect for fending off enemy scoring units. Should the enemy get close enough, you can then counter charge them with the Mok.

    In the next battle, we will play anihilation. Fair point, Icant use both my hvy bolter & MoK together here, but should my berserkers need some cover fire before they charge, the hvy bolter gives that extra... Bolt...

    Any way, I have had a slight change of heart about my list, see the first post for the full new list. I plan to swap the hvy bolters for missile launchers. Iknow, I know, your all sat there now yelling at your computer and punching your keyboard, but hear me out! My friend is a objective fanatic, every game we play must have some key location to serve as a CC hot-spot. Missile launchers provide long-ish range rhino popping, greatly slowing the advance of his scoring units which can then be thrown back to where they from by a lash prince (yes, you heard me, im taking the advice of whoever told me princes are better than sorcs).

    Anyway, give the new list a sniff, and TEAR IT APPART! =]

    TY for the help ppl, I hope ive proved my point though.

    ---------- Post added at 18:05 ---------- Previous post was at 18:02 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kendowned View Post
    10 khorne with a skull champ and PF and rhino for 265
    BTW, Who on earth takes a power fist on a zerker? No off, but talk about a waste of I 5. =]
    Last edited by Black Hawk; February 28th, 2009 at 18:16.

  10. #8
    Member HybridChaos's Avatar
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    BTW, Who on earth takes a power fist on a zerker? No off, but talk about a waste of I 5. =]
    Those of us who play against dreadnoughts / other walkers. Its not just the extra I you get on the charge, 5 attacks from a fist at str 9? Yes please. Plus if that's against a tank you're striking back armor.
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  11. #9
    Member Black Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HybridChaos View Post
    Those of us who play against dreadnoughts / other walkers. Its not just the extra I you get on the charge, 5 attacks from a fist at str 9? Yes please. Plus if that's against a tank you're striking back armor.
    Ok, fair point, But I personaly see berserkers as very reliable anti infanrty. CSMs have many other, and in my oppinion, better ways of dealing enemy armour. The manager at my local store helped me devise this list and hes been playing CSM for most of his life. There are 2 things he swaers by, Oblits and Landraiders. I know 1500 is a bit steep for a raider, but oblits are probably youre best bet when it comes to blacking tanks. Justthough id post my views =]

    I hope in some obscure and warped way =]

    P.S Il post my revised list tmorow

  12. #10
    Member HybridChaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Hawk View Post
    Ok, fair point, But I personaly see berserkers as very reliable anti infanrty. CSMs have many other, and in my oppinion, better ways of dealing enemy armour. The manager at my local store helped me devise this list and hes been playing CSM for most of his life. There are 2 things he swaers by, Oblits and Landraiders. I know 1500 is a bit steep for a raider, but oblits are probably youre best bet when it comes to blacking tanks. Justthough id post my views =]

    I hope in some obscure and warped way =]
    Not got a bad word to say about oblits, every Chaos player I know loves them. They don't fit my style however so I don't use them.

    And yeah I agree zerkers are the perfect anti infantry, however there's plenty of situations when a dreadnoughts in range you have to decide - run around it and hope its assault cannon and heavy flamer doesnt cut down ALL your troops, then it charges you and you can't do anything. Or have that fist so your oponent thinks twice as your rhino heads towards it. My compromise was having two squads with power spoons and one with a fist. One of the spoon squads was with kharne. Kharne rips open armor

    Note : Found the thread that changed my mind originally, take a look http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ull-champ.html
    Last edited by HybridChaos; February 28th, 2009 at 18:34.
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