I now hate the Chaos Marines!!! - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Member DrkApostate's Avatar
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    I now hate the Chaos Marines!!!

    I used to love the CSM. Now, I hate them. GW has done so much to nerf our old strengths whie at the same time elevating their love affair, the loyalist marines, to god status. I have two players I play against. One has Space Marines and the other plays Orks. Out of 5 gams played against the marines, I won one time, by luck, and was outnumbered!! every time. Orks I have lost all three games I played against them but it was at least closer than the games against the loyalists.
    First, I don't understand how the heck the loyalist beat the hell out of me every game. He usually fields, 30 tac marines (3 units of 10 all split into combat squads w/ ML and flamers) a 10 man sterngaurd squad (the one with the special ammo), 2 Dreads, 2 Landspeeders, a 7 or so scout squad with the scout special character, and Captain for an HQ. He just kills the hell out of me with this list.
    Here is what I usually run;

    Scorcerer:
    Term. Arm.
    MOS, Lash
    combi melta

    or

    DP:
    wings, MOS, lash

    then:

    7 Raptors:
    champ. w/ 2x light. claws
    MOS

    Vindicator

    10 Marines:
    champ. w/ ps
    ML

    10 Marines:
    champ. w/ps
    Lascannon

    8 Marines:
    champ. w/ ps

    8 Marines

    Obliterator

    Obliterator

    He usually kills this list, I know there is not much anti. armor, but he outnumbers me also and brings even more firepower to the table. My Vindicator doesnt usually even last to shoot two turns. The Obliterators dont do alot and his combat squads are just more versatile than my units. Any help/criticism would be appreciated.

    If you like or dislike what I have to say, please by all means add to/hinder my rep. Thank you.

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  3. #2
    Now with STFU flames! Caluin's Avatar
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    Orks are meant to outnumber you. Unless they're playing a Nob Biker heavy list, in which case they try to 'out-elite' you, which is tough to do against a Chaos list.

    The Space Marine list you mentioned has a model count of 52. Your list has 47. I don't consider that to be outnumbered.

    Speaking strictly about the SM player (since I don't know the Ork list makeup), the biggest problem I see right off with your list is that there's not much you can do about his armour assets. Landspeeders can pretty much keep range on you, and the only thing that really threatens the Dreads are the Oblits and perhaps the Vindicator. I assume a typical battle has him targeting those models first and then walking all over whatever is left.

    You field only one piece of armour. That makes it a prime target. Armour is best used in two ways; none of it, or lots of it. The idea is to either over load your opponent with so much armour assets that he can't effectively deal with it, or you dilute the effectiveness of his anti-armour weaponry.

    Long story short; either try to drop the Vindi and buy more troops (helping to solve your outnumbered issues), or free up some points for Predators, Rhinos, Dreads, what have you. If you do keep the Vindicator, give it Daemonic Possession. The loss of BS doesn't really effect it too much, but it forces your opponent to devote more firepower to it instead of just settling for a shaken or stunned result.

    Before I comment much further, how many points is your list supposed to be?
    Last edited by Caluin; March 22nd, 2009 at 22:56.

  4. #3
    Member HybridChaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrkApostate View Post
    I used to love the CSM. Now, I hate them. GW has done so much to nerf our old strengths whie at the same time elevating their love affair, the loyalist marines, to god status. I have two players I play against. One has Space Marines and the other plays Orks. Out of 5 gams played against the marines, I won one time, by luck, and was outnumbered!! every time. Orks I have lost all three games I played against them but it was at least closer than the games against the loyalists.
    First, I don't understand how the heck the loyalist beat the hell out of me every game. He usually fields, 30 tac marines (3 units of 10 all split into combat squads w/ ML and flamers) a 10 man sterngaurd squad (the one with the special ammo), 2 Dreads, 2 Landspeeders, a 7 or so scout squad with the scout special character, and Captain for an HQ. He just kills the hell out of me with this list.
    Here is what I usually run;

    Scorcerer:
    Term. Arm.
    MOS, Lash
    combi melta

    or

    DP:
    wings, MOS, lash
    Stick with the lash prince, much tougher and worth the points
    then:

    7 Raptors:
    champ. w/ 2x light. claws
    MOS
    2 Meltas needed
    Vindicator
    Consider daemonic possesion, or a defiler for the longer range ord shot
    10 Marines:
    champ. w/ ps
    ML
    I hope that ML doesnt stand for missile launcher? Heavy weapons in marines [I can see a lascannon below] is counter productive. The inability to move and fire really cripples your versatality. Rhino's also needed to help you get in range without being cut down so quick
    10 Marines:
    champ. w/ps
    Lascannon

    8 Marines:
    champ. w/ ps

    8 Marines

    Obliterator

    Obliterator

    He usually kills this list, I know there is not much anti. armor, but he outnumbers me also and brings even more firepower to the table. My Vindicator doesnt usually even last to shoot two turns. The Obliterators dont do alot and his combat squads are just more versatile than my units. Any help/criticism would be appreciated.
    You deffinately need some armor. An AC/las pred to handle his dreadnoughts, A defiler / your vindicator to cut down troops. Then your squads need to be loaded into rhinos. Consider
    10 CSM - champ w/fist. 2 Meltas
    10 CSM - champ w/fist. 2 Meltas
    10 CSM - champ w/fist. 2 Plasmas

    all with rhinos, 640 points for 30 troops [before rhinos] and you can move and fire away.

    5 Raptors - Champ w/fist. 2 Meltas [160pts]

    Quick, mobile squad to cut down his armor

    so your HQ, 3 troops, fast atk and HS leaves you 300 points to fill with what you see fit, perhaps your two oblits and maybe your sorc aswell?

    Should give you enough staying power vs the MEQs
    | Hybrid Warband | __*W:7 *D:1 *L:1__
    | Hive Fleet Hybrid | __*Not Unleashed*_

  5. #4
    Senior Member Arizzar's Avatar
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    I agree with Caluin about the Vindicator. I would never use that as my only piece of armor. If you are gonna have just one tank, you will generally be better off with a predator. But as Caluin says having just one tank means that it will be the target of every anti tank gun you face.

    I would suggest you rethink your marine squads a bit. 10 man squads are the way to go, but I have yet to see the use of heavy weapons in my marine squads. Much rather go for two special weapons... plasma being my favorite here. CSM really excel at close quarters combat, so I strongly suggest you use them for that. Having a 10 man squad with champ babysit a missile launcher is not the best way to use them. If they fire the heavy weapon they dont move, and if they move they cannot fire the heavy weapon.

    You would probably benefit from adding some additional heavy weaponry, or at least putting it somewhere else. My suggestion is that you drop the heavy weapons from the two 10 man CSM squads, and give them two plasmas instead. If you want marines with heavy weapons then go for Devastators.

    Either drop the vindicator, or find a way to add some more armor. A predator is hard to go wrong with. And rhinos are dirt cheap these days. Adding extra armor means cutting down on the number of models you field, and that may not be what you want.

    If you go with more armor, consider using a Daemon Prince with mark of Tz since he can soak up a lot of firepower, and people tend to shoot at him with the same stuff that can hurt your tanks.

    The times I have used a lash sorcerer I have given him wings and let him join my raptors. This works very well as it makes him much harder to avoid.

    /Arizzar
    If the radiance of a thousand suns
    Were to burst at once into the sky,
    That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One...
    I am become Death,
    The shatterer of Worlds.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Moschaboy's Avatar
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    maybe this would fit in the army list section better so it might get moved soon.

    to slaughter loyalists however, i'd try to go mechanized. with no other tanks in your list it's not strange that your vindicator gets shot up pretty fast. if you get some rhinos, the scout special character can't kill your special weapons guys any more. try to get close, it's where our marines excel. with twice the attacks of a normal marine, we kill them in closecombat. also tray to get your units some special weapons to fit in with the mobile theme of a mechanized army. finally add some powerfist to your champions to instagib his characters and dismantle his dreadnaughts

    try something like that against him:

    HQ:
    Prince with mark of slaanesh and lash

    troops:
    10 CSM with 2 meltas, champion with power fist and rhino
    10 CSM with 2 meltas, champion with power fist and rhino
    10 CSM with 2 Plasma guns, champion with power fist and rhino

    Fast attack: 7 Rhaptors with 2 meltas, icon of slaanesh and champion with lightning claws

    Heavy Support:
    Vindicator with daemonic posession
    Obliterator
    Obliterator

    if that's too much points, you can drop the raptors.

    with this list you have many armoured targets for him to shoot at, not just the lone vindicator. now you can get close to them and rapid fire them to death before ripping them apart in close combat.



  7. #6
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moschaboy View Post
    maybe this would fit in the army list section better so it might get moved soon.
    Was thinking the same thing. After all, DrkApostate, you're asking for help with the list

    *thread punted to the chaos army list forum*
    Spambot kill tally. . .337

  8. #7
    Murder omgitsduane's Avatar
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    Take a defiler! marines hate these things to death and anything you can throw infront of it for a cover save just adds to its strength.

  9. #8
    The Singing Blade Dream Thief's Avatar
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    I'm with duane.

    A defiler would add some nice destruction power. Vindicators are too short range to be much use.

    ~ L


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