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I've been working pretty hard recently to make a list that is competitive that uses a fair amount of terminators, I looked at deathwing for a long while, but in the end I found it just wasn't worth it considering the few wounds for so many points. However I was stuck in a pickle, because I love the look of dark angels. So, remembering that CSM terminators were only 30 points a pop and could be given extra attacks, I figured I'd have a go. The modeling plan is to use normal terminators, but give them Dark Angel like things, like power swords, and maybe heavily worn armor, and the obliterators be something like dreadnoughts gone daemonic.
Daemon Prince (155
5x terminators (210
-Icon of Khorne
5x terminators (210
-Icon of Khorne
10x Marines (230
-2x plasma guns
10x Marines (230
-2x plasma gun
10x Marines (235
-1x plasma guns
2x Obliterators (150
1x Obliterator (75
Total: 1495 pts 44 bodies
Fluff wise there are some things that I am sacrificing to be slightly more competitive. But I figure the terminators will deepstrike along with the obliterators (maybe not all the obliterators considering first which is more tactical depending on the enemies army) I let one squad of marines hold my objective, and the other move forward, pop smoke, and just attempt to pull some fire away from the terminators (as I have a lack of armor) as well as maybe shielding the DP while he's running up the field? Also I may drop the marines off on my objective, and have the other rhino be a shield for either the marine filled rhino or prince.
I think the list is far from complete and not quite competitive yet, but I'm hoping that's where you all can give me a hand! let me know what you think, and I'll happily listen. =D
Last edited by Speed; June 1st, 2009 at 02:07. Reason: Edit: army revision
Only things i'd really change is the number of terminator squads, i'd personally take two and use another marine squad, just to have more than enough bodies to capture objectives, as well CSM are incredibly good by themselves anyway so you have nothing to fear about losing effectiveness.
Also i'd remove the reaper autocannon, and put on a heavy flamer and combi weapons on all the terminators, mix it up between squads, couple of meltas and plasmas in each that will sort out anything nicely.
Also i'd love to see photos of this army, i'd considering making fallen if i didnt already have like 4k points of black legion, they would/could look amazing.
All the best.
Oh forgot to say, you could try using the dark angels chapter upgrade with your boxes of CSM to get that fallen look, as well inside you do get some deathwing gear to upgrade your terminators if you'd like.
Last edited by Winter; May 31st, 2009 at 22:36.
I imagine it would be sweet! I'm trying to get a bunch of bits off of a friend who's already made his DA army and is looking to sell some random stuff, so I think it could look pretty nice. Only real issue I face is that I'm going to be majorly converting the assault on black reach terminators.. They're cheap and I'll have to convert whatever terminators I get, so I may as well. I'll try to get some pics on the internet when I'm done and let you know.
In the mean time, I'll revise the list with your suggestions. My only worry, is that the two squads of terminators won't be able to handle down field by themselves. Also, do you think it would be better to take a plasma cannon, or lascannon on the squad sitting on my home objective instead of the double plasma guns? I figure with a lascannon they could get some lucky shots every once in a while?
The Assault on black reach terminators wouldn't be too hard to convert i think, you will just have to file and remove all the ultrasmurfs insignias off them. Outside of that adding in if you can any deathwing shoulder pads or weapons etc mixed up with some chaos stuff you'd turn out some nice terminators
5 terminators is enough to handle themselves, you really should play them as impact troops, deepstrike next to really hot zones to add in some firepower and remove a threat or tank/HQ hunt with them, its never fun for anyone to lose their powerful HQ choice in the second turn to a set of combiplasmas/meltas. 10 terminators will be great as it will split the heat on them, two squads to two different locations your opponent is going to be wondering what to hit so they can eliminate the most potent threat, then they still have the rest of your army to deal with.
Ideally you'd be marching all your chaos troops forwards in their rhinos, because there is only one mission where you have a home objective in that instance you could leave a troop choice there, outside of that 30 CSM are a force to be reckoned with and using 2 special weapons is generally preferred. 2 plasma guns for some nice firepower support although you can get yourself with Gets Hot! and thats a 30 point model gone due to its own weapon.
Another thing i missed was use 2 melta guns instead of the plasma gun and lascannon. They give you some nice tank hunting ability inside your squads that most overlook as well it allows you to shoot with the meltas and bolt pistols and still charge . If you do use heavy weapons that reduces your effectiveness, compared to normal SM, CSM are much more suited to CC, if you try to be a shooty army you might survive you are a marine afterall but you have much better odds in assault.
I think that answers everything
Goodluck, can't wait for those photos.
Well, good news, I've put in the bids and am about to get my terminators, maybe 3-4 days from now and then I can start some work on them.
@melta guns: I think melta guns are better.. but I'm torn between the competitive aspect and the actual fluff of the army. Not only are meltas cheaper and more tactical, they're also a flame weapon (something to consider), but I may change them out anyways. I'll decide that when modeling the marines and to see whether or not they seem viable as DA fallen.
I think it's worth keeping the lascannon on at least one marine, because it's only a few points more to make the squad useful even that one game they're sitting on the home objective. However I will change the other one to make it a little more strong.
One last thing to ponder, any ideas on how I should make the obliterators? I really hate the models they sell, but realized that just converting a dread would cause some people to make a mess of their pants as to why I had 4 elites choices, and how I was getting the points for them.
I dig the obliterator models, so i have three of those, I'd maybe suggest converting an ogryn model that could be kind of cool, would require removal of the ripper gun and then addition of other weapons through green stuff etc to make it mould into the arm.
Or you could try ogres from WHFB. I'll check the GW site for some other models i reckon could turn up alright. They are all i could think of off the top of my head.
I appreciate that! I bet they would look pretty cool. Alternatively, I've been thinking of a more fluffy list which almost seems more competitive to me. The idea is, instead of having a group of fallen that have succumbed to the chaos gods, have a group that merely got pulled into the warp by no purpose of their own, and has been fighting separately ever since. The changes would include dropping the obliterators and prince to loose the demonic aspects, and replacing them with a lord (also much easier and way more fun to convert) and a couple predators.
Still leaves loads of room for modeling considering they've been fighting with the same armor for so long, and I figure many scratches and bullet hits are in order, but it seems almost desirable over having to convert those oblits. I really wish there was a reliable CSM dreadnought though, as that would make the list certainly more cool.
In other news, I have the paint scheme thought out. Because the old DA were black on black cloaks and all, I think I'll do something similar to this. Perhaps black marines, with some dark angels green lit up with a few other colors to make it black but still have the green for reference. Also I'm going to try my hand on some swords crossing over knee pads, legs, shoulders, etc.
ideas on which list seems more realistically strong?
For strength a list using the daemon prince and predators/obliterators would be the most realistic. Now fluff wise you can always take obliterators, as the codex says they are their own faction and work for the highest bidder basically.
If your going to go down the DA route, for painting i'd go with Black robes and a really dark DA green armour, like maybe a 1:1 mix of DA green and Chaos Black, a really darkish colour.
Also if your going to go down the whole DA lost in the warp route, take a sorceror give him a jump pack, that way you still kinda get the impact of Lash Prince. Plus its a bit more fluffy, just call him a librarian, or use a librarian model and convert away.
Predators are nice, autocannon turret and lascannon sponsoons are a good set up for 130 points a tank, you should easily make the points back plus some.
Army aside i agree with the Dreadnaught deal, not a huge fan of the chaos model. I just used an imperial one and spiked it up. Looks pretty cool.
Keep on with the questions if you have any .
alright, so the alternate list would be switching the prince for the sorceror which can cause instant death to many things, and that's always nice. And then either getting a couple predators or a couple vindicators (I've worked out both lists and they can fit the points).
Preferences and opinions on which is better would be nice.
Alright Daemon Prince vs Sorceror is a bit of personal preference.
Daemon Princes are monstrous creatures, so they get treated as always using a powerweapon and get 2D6 for armour penetration, plus they are toughness 5 strength 6 and an eternal warrior, pretty effective
Sorcerors are regular infantry, come with a 5+ invulnerable save, but they can die to instant death (which i found out so poorly to a hidden powerfist on a striking scorpion exarch). On the plus side they come with a force weapon, which gives you that awesome ability to wipe anything with the special attack and the rest of the attacks count as a power weapon. Although i'm not sure if the force weapon attack counts as using your psychic ability for that turn, you'll have to check that one. If it does you can take a familiar for 5 points ,or a mark of tzneetch.
Preference wise, i personally have one of each, and which one i use depends on the situation, Daemon prince is generally used more for all round effectiveness, with the sorceror being placed in the list, to verse lists with basically important single characters or units.
Differences between a vindi and a predator tank. Well you can set up the Predator to be either anti-infantry or anti-tank or a little bit of both, so it has much more versatility than a vindicator. Although the all lascannon predator is generally considered over expensive a bit of a waste, i used one once and it made its points back, but i can see how quickly it could become a sink.
Vindi's are nice when used with lash, they can make short work of anything and can also be used for tank hunting, although the 24" range doesn't make things that easy, so you have to be much more careful with how and where you are placing it.
Mmm i'd personally take predators over the vindicator, (i like defilers more than a vindi, the close combat ability is a great alternative on them that people forget about) Using an Autocannon turret, lascannon sponsoons is a nice set and up and depending on the army will return the 130 points easily . Or a dakka pred (Autocannon turret, heavy bolter sponsoons) against horde armies, works well as well.
And lastly whatever you are running for tanks, run em in pairs, the more vehicles the better really, having one of two allows your opponent ot pick the nearest threat and fire away, and always think about how your placing vehicles to grab cover saves, they are amazing at giving you that little bit of extra staying power.