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I'm brand new to Chaos Daemons and to 40k/wargaming as well (my first post here, too!). I chose CDs as my first army because they were so darn cool lookin' and my experienced friend assured me that they seemed really awesome, after a flip through the codex.
I'm just not faring very well so far. I'm getting really frustrated, so I thought I'd reach out to the internet for help. I understand that one of the big problems is that I'm new, so I'm constantly forgetting stuff about my army, and I don't know much about the tactical points of the game. The largest game I've tried playing so far has been 1500 pts. I play with two experienced friends only, one who plays Eldar and another who is currently trying out Imperial Guard. We only play the mission where you just try to get as many victory points, I guess - this is their preference.
I am just having trouble contending with these shooty armies. And my luck seems to be more on the awful side (the last game I played, I had 3 deep strike mishaps on my first turn, and my expensive GD just died outright). So I need something consistently good - the list, perhaps? I just figure if my list is already bad, that will not help me succeed. I don't even care about winning... I just don't want to be annihilated.
So here's my newest (and best) list:
Lord of Change
-Breath of Chaos
Herald of Khorne
Pink Horrors x10
-Instrument of Chaos
-Unholy Might [one model]
-Instrument of Chaos
-Fury of Khorne
I may as well also let you know that I have the following additional models either sitting out of this list, or just haven't put them together yet (bc I got the Spearhead):
10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh
1 The Masque
5 Flesh Hounds
1 Beast of Nurgle
1 Daemon Prince (not my model, but I can use this whenever)
Firstly, is there anything obviously horribly wrong with my current list?
Secondly, can it be improved by adding the other models I have? (and it doesn't have to stay at 1500 pts)
Thanks so much for your help
First off daemons are not an ez army to play it take time and thinking to get your head around them. now your list needs a but of work not to say its that bad a list but with it your trying to do a little of ech thing and in daemons that will not go so well.... ask your self what kind of list you'd like combat power house? fast and hard hitting? supper shooty? and so on and run with it. now the big things daemons have going for them are in the HQ, Elites, heavy, runing 3 soul grinders or DP's will give you sum crazy power to play with and will help you start wining games. a big think is your going to need more troops in your list you need them for 2/3 of the games youll be playing a 5+ save is not so grate as invulnerable as it my be so the more troops you drop the more you will have in the end.
so post away and tell us what you need to know most of us on this forum have been playing daemons Since it came out (and sum of us like me non stop) i hope this helped.
Yep, Daemons as a first army is going to lead to plenty of growing pains. Keep with it, it's a fun and unique army at heart so enjoy that. Maybe not the most competitive unless you trick out, but it's fun.
As for your army itself, you've got a couple problems.
Lord of Change is simply too expensive and doesn't have enough firepower to justify the cost. For 80 points less you can field 2 Tzeentch Heralds on chariots with bolt and master of sorcery. They lose 1BS, but you double your firepower and increase your total wound count. Very useful HQ.
Kherald on a Jugger is awfully expensive, a chariot is generally a better pick. He's slow and expensive. Death Strike sucks. Blessing is awesome.
Bloodletters are awesome mop up units, but they need something to reach combat first so they won't get shot up.
Horrors are garbage. Too soft, too expensive, not good at plugging gaps (tanks). 2 units of 5 with bolt maybe, but that's about it. Definitely run after deep striking to avoid getting pie plated.
Plaguebearers are awesome objective cappers, so keep them cheap. 2 units of 5 can hold 2 objectives practically all game and boosts your wave count. Don't bother with icons, they're simply too expensive and too limited in their effect. Handy when they work, but far from necessary.
Fiends are the best unit in the book, always take moar.
Flamers are a handy mobile reserve, but extremely fragile. It's a risk dropping into flamer range, so it may be easier to pop in behind something and take advantage of their jump packery.
Bloodcrushers are awfully slow, too easy to avoid. Unless you have highly mobile units to get to enemies first, I'd avoid them.
1 Grinder isn't enough, it's your only vehicle and you need at least 2. They're combat machines first and foremost, so phlegm isn't necessary if you need points.
You've got a little bit of everything with no real focus. Daemons need to close quickly to silence enemy guns and keep them from running away and they also need to pop transports so they can get to the gooey bits inside. Anything that flies, moves like cavalry or even have fleet/Pavane can do this. For knocking out vehicles, you have aforementioned fast units (a whole mess of S5 rending attacks will take anything short of rear AV13 down), bolt and tongue. Bolt is your best bet, but it comes on pricey platforms. Tzeentch DPs and Heralds are your best bet since they're relatively cheap. Tongue looks nasty, but it's only BS3 on your combat crab monster.
What in particular has given you problems?
I agree with ==Me== on some points, and disagree on others. First and foremost, I definitely agree that Chaos Daemons are a very difficult first army. Still, if you keep at it, you'll find that they're quite powerful, if you can keep them alive long enough to reach close combat.
I agree that the herald of khorne is too expensive for what it does. You're better off just fielding a 5th bloodcrusher.
I don't think Lords of Change are bad. They're quite versatile.
Pink horrors are definitely not bad. They helped me win a tournament a month back. However, I prefer small units with bolt, rather than large ones.
I'd try and fit the 5 extra bloodletters you have into the list, and a chaos icon would be nice for the unit as well (I try to put an icon in each wave).
I agree with ==Me== that you really need another soul grinder. Either that, or more daemon princes. I always fill all 3 heavy slot choices, if you can.
Here's how I'd run your list:
Lord of Change 
14 Bloodletters w/icon, instrument 
5 Pink Horrors w/bolt, changeling 
5 Pink Horrors w/bolt 
6 Plaguebearers w/icon 
3 Fiends 
3 Flamers 
3 Bloodcrushers 
Soul Grinder w/phlehm 
Daemon Prince of Nurgle w/flight, breath, noxious touch, cloud of flies 
You could also use the lord of change as a daemon prince, and use a herald of Tzeentch or the Masque as your HQ. In any case, always use what's the most fun for you. Good luck!
Last edited by mynameisgrax; October 28th, 2009 at 13:23.
"Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm definitely looking to either use what I have now and/or proxy things as I've spent way too much money having only been in this for about 2 months, lol. I definitely am going to stick with it though, I really have been enjoying the painting and modelling aspects of the army. I only get to play once a week, unfortunately. I should probably make it to 40k night at the game store for more experience.. but I'm afraid since I'm so unfamiliar with the rules and with my own army (seriously, I have to look at my stat lines EVERY time).
Forgot to mention, I have 3 bases of Nurglings... They have any place in my list??
@GAX70: When you say more troops do you mean more guys in the squads I have, or more small squads? Or 6 big squads, for that matter? Most of everything I have is pretty weak... so I'll definitely add the DP and consider buying another Soul Grinder. Thanks.
@==Me==: Wow, a lot to reply to here. Sounds like I've wasted a lot of money on models that may not be too great in the game . But thanks for the input.
As far as what has given me problems... I have only successfully had the Bloodletters get into combat once. They just get picked apart no matter where I put them. I've considered higher numbers just in the hopes that they'd last just a little bit longer to make it in... But I've read online that 10 is a good survivable number. That's not my experience. My opponents are too wary of the damage they can do.
In my early games, Plaguebearers were my key units (500 pts) especially against Eldar and IG because they could hold their own in CC. Now... they are ignored because they are so slow. I always take them with an Icon, but they're never really I want them to be and I get desperate to close near the end when my reserves finally trickle in, so I just end up risking it with a regular deep strike.
I definitely feel like getting another Soul Grinder would be an awesome help... make my opponent a little more nervous and not able to sink all his heavy fire into one big scary dude. Are they really good in close combat? For some reason I looked at his WS and thought that looked poor. Is there something I'm missing? And btw, I have actually dealt some awesome damage with Phlegm, before he inevitably was immobilized/destroyed.
Otherwise, just my luck and inexperience probably are the biggest problems. I seem to be making poor placement choices... I don't know how to close without getting shot up in the first turn. I almost feel like I can't handle the 1500 pts level because they're so much going on... but I hear Daemons get better and better as you up the pts level. Thanks again
@mynameisgrax: I really appreciate you working out a list with what I already have. Do you run small units of Horrors to get more Bolts? I just really enjoy firing 30 shots of Warpfire into my friends IG squads... It feels to me that numbers are really what puts the odds of doing damage with them in your favor. But I am not sure of anything in this confusing game. I'll have to look at the DP... they have so many options that I kind of avoided them because I wanted to start simple.
How would you play this army (wave division, and general tactics for those waves)?
Thanks for the help
Last edited by illbeinyourband; October 28th, 2009 at 21:10.
if you have more questions tipe away.
They are quite slow and pretty fragile, that's why they need faster units to get to the enemy quicker so they get shot up less. Putting them in the 2nd wave should keep them safe long enough and when they come in they should last longer with less shooters running around.As far as what has given me problems... I have only successfully had the Bloodletters get into combat once. They just get picked apart no matter where I put them. I've considered higher numbers just in the hopes that they'd last just a little bit longer to make it in... But I've read online that 10 is a good survivable number. That's not my experience. My opponents are too wary of the damage they can do.Anything can beat IG and Guardians in HtH PBs are ideal for holding objectives, you can stick them wherever and they will generally stay alive all game.In my early games, Plaguebearers were my key units (500 pts) especially against Eldar and IG because they could hold their own in CC. Now... they are ignored because they are so slow. I always take them with an Icon, but they're never really I want them to be and I get desperate to close near the end when my reserves finally trickle in, so I just end up risking it with a regular deep strike.Fleet, S10, ignoring shaken/stunned and all those attacks make Grinders beastly in combat. Phlegm is a handy upgrade, but generally Daemons don't need any help killing infantry. Grinders can make a mockery of even the toughest armor.I definitely feel like getting another Soul Grinder would be an awesome help... make my opponent a little more nervous and not able to sink all his heavy fire into one big scary dude. Are they really good in close combat? For some reason I looked at his WS and thought that looked poor. Is there something I'm missing? And btw, I have actually dealt some awesome damage with Phlegm, before he inevitably was immobilized/destroyed.You can fit more in, but they do just fine at lower points level (Fiends are cheap). If 1500 seems overwhelming, try lower levels so you can get a feel for the army. Practice is the best way to get better. Daemons have a steeper learning curve than most armies due to their inherent randomness, but the payoff is that much sweeter.Otherwise, just my luck and inexperience probably are the biggest problems. I seem to be making poor placement choices... I don't know how to close without getting shot up in the first turn. I almost feel like I can't handle the 1500 pts level because they're so much going on... but I hear Daemons get better and better as you up the pts level. Thanks again
Based on what you have, you could whip up something like...
3x Slaanesh Heralds on chariots w/ might and musk (You can substitue Fiends as these for now, converting them is a simple matter of sticking a Daemonette on a chariot or scraping together your own out of spare parts)
3x 2 Bloodcrushers, 1 has fury of khorne (relatively cheap bricks you can throw at people, fury of khorne is in for wound allocation)
10 Bloodletters (mop up)
2x 5 Plaguebearers (objective cappers)
2x 5 Horrors, 1 w/ bolt (not great, but more bolt is always good)
Grinder w/ Phlegm
2x Princes w/ Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Gaze (pretend the LoC is a DP, maybe remove his wings if possible)
You have some speedy units, namely the Heralds and Grinder, with decent firepower to knock out vehicles and some beefy killers to eat people. Hem them in with your Crushers and smash faces.
You could also count your LoC as Fateweaver and take a bunch of Crushers. It's crazy expensive and a pretty big gamble considering how slow the Crushers are and how difficult it is to get those big bases down safely, but they can contest objectives quite well and more or less dictate your opponent's movement. They're even better if your opponent has limited mobility. Re-rolling invulnerable saves is a good way to keep your units around longer.
Last edited by ==Me==; October 28th, 2009 at 22:48.
Anything can beat guardians in close combat? Try it when they're 'fortuned' and you're 'doomed'. ^_^
As for waves, it depends on your strategy, but there are three overall strategies: mirror, specialists, and monster squad.
In mirror strategy, both halves are more or less similar. The advantage of this is it doesn't really matter what wave you get on turn 1. If you're using this strategy, I'd put the bloodletters, bloodcrushers, lord of change, one unit of pink horrors, and the soul grinder in the first wave, and the rest in the second.
In specialist strategy, one half is designed to shoot and the other is designed to assault. You can either get the assault troops on the table first, to maximize the number of turns you'll have in close combat, or the shooting units first, to take down transports and distant, troublesome units. If you're using this strategy, I'd put the bloodletters, fiends, daemon prince of nurgle, bloodcrushers, and the unit of pink horrors with the changeling in the first wave, and the rest in the second.
In monster squad strategy (almost forgot this one), all the monstrous creatures and soul grinders are in the same wave. This is to make it more difficult for your opponent to deal with all of them. I'd still have at least one troop unit though, to provide an icon, and to grab objectives, should this unit arrive 'second' instead of first. The disadvantage of this strategy is that if you're forced to use the secondary wave, you won't have any monstrous creatures on the board at the start of the game. If you're using this strategy, I'd put the plaguebearers, lord of change, daemon prince of nurgle, soul grinder, and bloodcrushers in the first wave, and the rest in the second.
Last edited by mynameisgrax; October 29th, 2009 at 13:49.
"Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
Thanks a lot guys, I really like the lists you put together. I'll definitely try both out and see how they work over the next few weeks. Usually I ignore my friends' tanks/transports. With Eldar, they're fast, and my list didn't have a lot of tank-hurting ability, so I'd just let them fly around... but now my friend is using guys (warp spiders, maybe?) with melta who just eat my Soul Grinder .
With my IG friend... I actually don't know why I ignore his tanks. I guess it's just that his quantity of shots gets overwhelming so I try to burn through his troops.
Wave 1: Lord of Change, Soul Grinder, Flamers, Pink Horrors, Plaguebearers w/ Icon
Wave 2: Herald of Khorne, Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers, Fiends
The plan was to shoot the stuff out of some infantry with my first wave (since almost everything can shoot on the first turn), and to use the Icon to bring the hard hitters in close to the action. Like I said, I generally ignore the tanks because the big groups of weak guys take out my big guys rather quickly. The Lord of Change, Soul Grinder, and Plaguebearers would get into close combat with the biggest and baddest squads to tie them up (2 units of 5 'Bearers would have been better, but I had to divide the waves up evenly...).
The second wave would come to clean up these diminished and tied up foes. I really thought the strategy was sound, but my luck was so bad and everything just trickled in from reserves. To be fair I only played this list once, but I put a lot of thought into it, where before I hadn't really, as I just threw all the units I had built together and hoped for the best.
And thanks for the strategy synopsis. That will definitely be useful as I try to refocus my army!
Last edited by illbeinyourband; October 29th, 2009 at 19:15.