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  1. #1
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    1.5k pain and pleasure list

    HQ
    Kharn the Betrayer 165

    Troops
    9 CSM (Champion with powerfist), MoS, Rhino with Twin linked bolter 235
    10 Khorne Berzerkers (Champion with powerfist), Rhino 285
    10 Khorne Berzerkers (Champion with powerfist), Rhino 285

    Elites
    5 Terminators with 5 combi-plasma’s, MoS, 1X Powerfist 200
    5 Terminators with 5 combi-plasma’s, MoS, 1X Powerfist 200

    Fast Attack
    5 Chaos Raptors with MoK, 2Xheavy flamer 130

    total: 1500

    Tell me what you think, where I could improve this to make it a little more competative

    finding some space for naked Rhinos

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  3. #2
    Formerly Prince of Excess EmoJosh's Avatar
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    There's a few things to changer here.

    Why Kharne? He's the same points as DP and a DP will smack more things around, plus psychic powers are amazing. Also another bullet magnet. The sad fact is CSM realistically has 1 viable HQ.

    Why MoS on the Marines? It gives them nothing they need. If you need the 10 points switch to Chaos Glory. They also need 2 Meltas, must buy.

    Zerkers are good.

    Do your Termies DS? If so, give them combi-meltas and a HF for on DSing tank/unit busters who can fight well. If they don't DS, drop the, walking Termies is a no no.

    Raptors aren't as good as they once were. Termies are better tank busters when DSing, I'd consider dropping them and a Termie squad for a 4th Troop choice, 4 Troops in 1500 for Marines is devastating.

    Hope that helps.
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  4. #3
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    ah ye, kharn is the lynch pin, using his icon to deep strike termies and raptors to where the action is.

    i totally agree about the MoS, i would of chosen MoK but I didnt have the points, plus they are being used as a melee unit with kharn so special weapons arent going to be used all that much, and it seems like a waste of points

    as for melta termies, they dont seem to perform as well as the plasma termies, and with the amount of powerfists i have in the list, meltas seem a bit of an overkill

    hmmm raptors, im deffinately willing to take them out, but for what? a small CSM unit that are just there to hold an objective?

    might help if i explain the tactic, its rhino rush, kharn with his CSM and the 2 units of berserkers rush accross the field then hopefully deepstrike the termies into a somewhat useful position then run rampage through the enemy forces if possible using the rhinos as cover, all the units are designed to be used as melee with fists to take on anything thats armoured

    still need help oh wise ones, so please guide me
    finding some space for naked Rhinos

  5. #4
    Formerly Prince of Excess EmoJosh's Avatar
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    Okay, Kharne has an Icon but he rides with your CSM unit. They also have an Icon, so why do they need his? He's not a lynchpin at all. Your zerker units can have Icons for 5 points as well, which is a good idea actually.

    A DP is a really good idea, you need to draw fire off the Rhinos not put targets in them. An unmarked DP with Wings and Warptime will run you 155, 10 cheaper than Kharne, 10 CHEAPER! So good.

    Meltas are better off an Icon if you have Icons in all 3 Rhinos. Melta group and 1 Plasma would be fine, plasmas are good against medium armor if you double tap. Powerfists aren't reliable because a smart player makes you hit on 6's. They're helpful but don't rely on them.

    I'd ditch the Raptors for Bikers (faster unit) or a Vindicator (needed ordnance vs. hordes.).
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  6. #5
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    Why are you running Raptors? Its has been my experience that they get blasted before they ever actually become useful. Think about it, you can't put them in rhinos, so they sit out in the open, and then the have to fly into the open more, giving plenty of chances to take them out. Its just like putting basic CSM out in the open in a squad of five...

    They're gonna die. I have raptors, but there is a reason I don't use them.
    Don't run the champion in the CSM squad, and run ten of them with a hv bolter and no mark of slaanesh, then strip the rhinos and cut the raptors, and that will leave you with 150 pts, with which you should run 2 oblits. that will give you hv cover fire that has awesome flamers, and you can take out vehicles. There you go.

  7. #6
    Formerly Prince of Excess EmoJosh's Avatar
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    Never ever leave Marines on foot and never ever leave Marines without a PF. Those are 2 golden rules for a good Marine list. It's just to risky and to exploitable, Marines on foot are far from gods, they're easily torrented. Outflanking only made things worse for them since 5th dropped.

    Raptors can be hidden if you re-model them. They're to tall as is but if you get them on foot (converted Assault Marines anyone?) you can hide them behind Rhinos. Still crap though because Bikes are just better.
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  8. #7
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    eye of horus... wait... did you just tell me to get rid of powerfists and rhinos? do you want me to lose?

    or were you talking about removing the twinlinked bolter from one of the rhino's? but still... talking about removing a powerfist... thats just silly talk

    as for demon prince, excess... you really think deamon prince will pack more of a punch than kharn? you have more wounds, and higher toughness with a prince, but kharn as more attacks and a better chance to hit, 1v1 its my line of thinking that kharn would be the victor. dont get me wrong I love deamon princes. but 1500 points of fire directed at them, they tend not to last all that long, because when your oponent sees a prince, thats like putting a bullseye on the field because they know what a threat they pose

    every chaos player in my local shop runs prince, typically with lash. kharn just offers a different plan of attack, i still think kharn is viable... and as such, i hes the one model in my army that im reluctant to remove.

    on the plus side, we have definately decided that raptors need to be removes, what would recomend replacing them with?

    you did say bikers, but it would be 4 bikers, with no upgrades, or 3 bikers with a few upgrades, its still not looking like a good strong unit is it? i would suggest adding lucius as that would keep in with the flavour but that would only put more targets in my rhinos, what i need is a really strong threatening unit to direct all the fire away from the rhinos so they get to the enemy in one piece
    finding some space for naked Rhinos

  9. #8
    Formerly Prince of Excess EmoJosh's Avatar
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    I don't know what to replace the Raptors with, a small bike unit seems fine. They can hide behind Rhinos which makes them good in small, expendable units.

    DPs are better than Kharne, probably 1v1 if it's marked and has Warptime. It's true they will sometimes die but Kharne will be stranded more often, that's as good as dead. I'd rather draw fire off my armor and maybe survive than give another reason to cripple armor.

    It's just a fact of strong CSM lists you have to use 1-2 DPs, it's boring but that's what best right now. *shrugs*
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  10. #9
    Senior Member joebloggs1987's Avatar
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    Where is the anti-tank?

    Meltaguns, winged daemon princes, and obliterators are the only things that can take out armor half decently, and you have none.

    Plasma isnt going to do anything.
    ----------
    Quote Originally Posted by zhambah View Post
    as for demon prince, excess... you really think deamon prince will pack more of a punch than kharn? you have more wounds, and higher toughness with a prince, but kharn as more attacks and a better chance to hit, 1v1 its my line of thinking that kharn would be the victor. dont get me wrong I love deamon princes. but 1500 points of fire directed at them, they tend not to last all that long, because when your oponent sees a prince, thats like putting a bullseye on the field because they know what a threat they pose
    On his own, a lash prince is nothing special.
    He is used as a tactical role rather than a straight out assault.

    Think like Magic: The Gathering... Its the difference between running an aggro and a combo deck. Each isnt overly effective for its points on its own, but when used in a combo its deadly.

    And plus, i think id rather run a Daemon Prince with Warptime MoN and wings than Kharn for an assaulty HQ.
    Chaos - 11W 0L 0D
    Orks - 8W 0L 0D
    Tyranids - 8W 0L 0D

  11. #10
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    erm, anti tank? how about every unit bar the raptors (which are getting taken out) having a powerfist, our best anti tank weapon, ok its close combat, but im not doing a shooty army, most of the time my guys will be in CC.

    well thats after i get to them, which still brings me back to my point of i need a big thing that screems look at me im dangerous so my rhinos can get to where they need to be

    im thinking out with the rhinos and re-ajust a termy unit so i can fit a nurgle deamon with wings in there. its the hardest thing ive come up with... the prince of excess says bikes, but im not sure... deamon prince causes alot more fuss than a few bikes... and will do a lot more damage if they do survive.

    but ye, as always, tips and tricks welcome
    finding some space for naked Rhinos

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