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Ok, I just started a CSM army, and going on what I have I was wondering if I could get some pointers on a quick 750pt army. Here goes the list
Mark Of Nurgle
Chaos Space Marines x10
Champion with Powerfist
Rhino with Havoc
Khorne Berzerkers x8
Champ with Powerfist
Rhino with Havoc
So that gives me a total of 668. I was thinking of adding an obliterator for some long range support. The havocs are there to help pester some infantry, both squads have a powerfist to help deal with armor, and the Prince can also tank hunt if needed, otherwise he will be used to help clear infantry. My main idea is an extremely aggressive play style, rushing the rhinos straight in and popping smoke, and having the prince follow. Please give me some pointers and try not to flame me too much
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Alright, first off, I'd like to say khorne berserkers are a great choice, and with a champ with a power fist, they will almost certainly demolish, to a man, anything they charge.
However, when you are playing a game as small as 750 points, it goes without saying that every point counts. This is why I feel the havoc launchers are a waste of points in your circumstance. Stow the gasp of horror, allow me to explain.
Consider the fact that the Berserkers are in a rhino, and you really, really want to get them into combat, with their 5 str 5 ws 5 attacks on the charge. So the rhino will be moving 12 inches a turn (it's maximum movement distance), and will therefore not be able to fire the havoc launcher, based on the 40k rulebook in regard to vehicles moving and what they can fire (your havoc launcher is not a defensive weapon, i.e. its str 5).
If you have no idea what I am talking about, see in store and borrow or preferably purchase a copy of the rulebook, especially if you are new to the game.
So that havoc launcher would pretty much be just for show.
In the case of your chaos marine squad, I'm asuming they will be using cover and smokescreens to advance upon war machines, pop out behind them and melt their rear armour. That or blast elite infantry with bolters and melta shots and have the power fist there in case anything is left alive to charge you. Considering that you want to be mobile, i.e. move the rhino it's full 12 inches of distance, you won't be able to fire the havoc launcher again.
If you are worried about not possessing enough template weapons, or firepower versatility (i.e. both anti-infantry and anti-tank) I would strongly suggest getting your hands on one, if not 2, Obliterators. They provide both lascannons for vehicles, and plasma cannons and twin-linked flamers (from memory, don't quote me) for infantry. Their incredible versatility makes them a wise investment, unless you want to tailor an army to a particular opponent, but where is the fun in that?
This is more a personal thing, but I feel that your daemon prince breaks the theme of your army (nurgle leading khorne?), but more importanly I feel some of his wargear is a waste of points in 750 points. Of course, wings are great and mean he will mostly get a charge off. However, warptime seems a little overboard, considering you will hit most infantry on 3's and wound them on 2's, warptime seems a bit of a waste in the case. He will easily flatten necron lords, even if they get back up to fight him, and will destroy most power fist armed generals before they have time to strike back. Point being, he doesn't need the points he spends on warptime. If you are worried about him having too little attacks, like I was when I first considered fielding a daemon prince, and if you don't want to make him a lash prince, which is a really stupid idea for such a large target, them give him a mark of khorne. This way, he gets 6 attacks on the charge, which will demolish most infantry squads, except maybe 10 man terminator squads with storm shields, but if thats what your opponent plays, maybe your opponent isn't looking for a game so much as an undeserved sense of superiority. Not only does this daemon fit your theme, with 6 attacks at ws 7 and str 6, and a monstrous creature, he is literally a combat monster easily capable of leveling entire squads with a well-timed charge. You can use him to support your troops as well to ensure them demolish an enemy or catch them and break them in a sweeping advance, seeing as he can chase them with wings after your berserkers make them lose combat, but play some games with an army before you commit to what I have told you, if you choose to follow any of it.
If you are worried that your daemon prince will get shot down, hide him behind your rhinos. Hear me out. This is good because:
1) The rhino will give him a cover save
2) it might block line of sight (though he is a monstrous creature so this may not be viable)
3) when it is time to assault, you can have your guys pop out of a rhino, move your daemon prince over the rhinos (this is where wings work), bolter and melt the poor unit, and then for good measure charge it with your daemon prince, to not only make them take morale checks (or armour saves) but to ensure that the units that came out of their rhinos don't get charged themselves (they can't charge if they exit a rhino travelling at full-tilt you see?)
750 points is a really good starting point, and thankyou for fighting for the right side instead of choosing Games Workshop's poster-boy army. I hope I have been of some help.
You helped me out more than you know.
The reason for the havoc launchers was I wanted the rhinos to be able to do something after the troops disembarked. Nurgle was there just for the T bonus.
However with your suggestions to run a naked winged prince and naked rhinos, I can afford either 2 obliterators, or a defiler (probably going for 2 single man units of obliterators).
So, the New list would look more like
Daemon Prince with Wings
CSM (10 man) squad +champ with powerfist, 2 meltas, and a naked rhino
Berzerker (8 man) squad +champ with powerfist, and a naked rhino
And that would bring it to 748 points total, with the option of dropping oblits for a defiler (which would get the 2ccw). Also, with the oblits I would table them from the start. Every turn they spend in reserve waiting to DS is a turn I lost a large firebase worth a fair share of points. I just don't feel it is worthwhile to take the chance on deepstriking a unit that has such a massive range with powerful weapons.
So, after the changes I think my army would be quite solid, any more suggestions are more than welcome.
Now maybe my GW will have some oblits in stock!
That's a great start for 750 points, and you have the ability to customise this army for large games, but only when you are ready to go large with CSMs.
You could run those obliterators separately, I guess so you can target different units, but in some cases it may be better to take them as an enitre squad, i.e. in situations of kill points, where, as you know, the anihilation of individual squads earns your opponent/s points. They'd be much more survivable together.
You are also right, most of the time, for deep striking obliterators. It usually better to have them on the table from turn 1 to take those tanks out from a far BEFORE they demolsih your army by the second turn, but always remember they can be deep striking if you wish. This could be favourable against imperial guard, where you can deep strike behind tanks and get a multimelta or twin-linked meltagun into their rear armour 10, rather than a lascannon to their front armour 14. But you are right, keep them on the field where they can help your army best. Just remember the option is avaliable; I always forget.
I like the idea of the defiler, ith a 3+ save becoming all but too common in warhammer 40k, along with fearlessness and AP3 (and less) weapons, but in 750 points, I'd advise against it. Hear me out:
A defiler has an armour value of 12 at best (I'm not telling you where). An obliterator 2 man squad has 4 wounds, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ cover save, most of the time and a 5+ invulnerable save. Consider a situation where a lascannon fires upon either one. A defiler will be rendered so much less effective, i.e. immobilised so it can't use its awesome combat weapons, weapon destroyed so it can't use it's battlecannon or similarly destroyed, most of the time it is penetrated or glanced. The enemy need but roll a 3 or higher. Considering 750 points, that's 150 of your points that just got decomissioned but a lucky lascannon shot. it get's even worse if the enemy gets close enough to use a meltagun or multimelta. This thing just isn't worth the points most of the time because it is a monstrous creature and it is only armour 12, despite it's possession.
On the other hand, a lascannon hits an obltierator sqaud, only half of the time will it instanly kill 1 of your 2 obliterators, meaning you can still use it's lascannons or plasma cannons. It just seems a better investment in 750 points. But I do go on don't I?
Anyway, good luck playtesting your army.
Since we're running the numbers, here's something to think about:
Scenario: Space Marine firing a lascannon at both a defiler and a pair of oblits:
-On a glancing hit- 33% chance to destroy a weapon. 17% chance to immobilize
-On a penetrating hit- 33% chance to destroy the vehicle (67% chance to destroy a weapon, 50% chance to immobilize)
Oblits (2x): 37% chance to kill outright if not in cover: 28% chance to kill outright if in 4+ cover
Summary: It's very difficult to render a defiler inoperative with any glancing hit. At best, you immobilize it, although it still has a battle cannon; or else, you roll a "weapon destroyed" result, and the defiler loses its cannon, but is still on the move. With a glancing hit, the defiler has far more staying power (IMO) than two oblits. Although, with a penetrating hit, the odds shift to favoring the oblits. Also, realize that my numbers have not taken into account that Defilers, too, can benefit from being in cover, which would further reduce each of the Defiler's chances of taking damage by half (not inconsequential to a good tactician).
In smaller games, defilers have in my experience done very well, since our opponents has fewer tank busting weapons to challenge it. Of course, the same is true with oblits. In my neck of the woods, oblits die fast and hard, whereas defilers tend to hang around a bit longer. However, it all depends on your playing style, terrain use, and what units your opponent(s) sees as his/her primary threat.
Last edited by Rabbit; November 19th, 2009 at 17:16.
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