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  1. #1
    Member angrySCORCH62's Avatar
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    Black Legion 1500

    Hi, this is an army list I've made for the Black Legion, I'm quite happy with this list but i'm sure it can be improved. Any advise would be appreciated thanks.

    HQ

    Chaos Lord: 145 pts
    -Terminator Armour
    -Daemon Weapon

    Elites

    5 Chaos Terminators: 175 pts
    -Terminator Champion
    -Chainfist

    Troops

    10 Chaos Space Marines: 190 pts
    -Aspiring Champion
    -Plasma Gun
    -Heavy Bolter

    10 Chaos Space Marines: 190 pts
    -Aspiring Champion
    -Plasma Gun
    -Heavy Bolter

    Fast Attack

    3 Chaos Bikers: 144 pts
    -Biker Champion with Power Weapon and Meltabombs
    -Icon of Chaos Glory

    5 Chaos Raptors: 120 pts
    -Aspiring Champion with Meltabombs

    Heavy Support

    3 Obliterators: 225 pts

    Land Raider: 240 pts
    -Daemonic Possession

    Transportation

    Chaos Rhino: 35 pts

    Chaos Rhino: 35 pts

    Total Points: 1498


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  3. #2
    Son of LO
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    What are your main priorities with the list? themed? competitive? Any units that are a must have in your list
    and what units would you preferably like to stay in your list if possible during the improvement of your list.
    thanks
    antique_nova
    Superior stamina may win battles, but the ability to quickly recover wins wars.

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    Member angrySCORCH62's Avatar
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    I want a themed list, but I do want to win with it, I thought the Black Legion could use any unit so anything will be within the theme.

    The only units I would like to keep are the elites (but I don't mind swapping the war gear)

    and the Land Raider (again I don't mind swapping the war gear).

  5. #4
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    i really hoped that the land was the thing you would stick with but i will see what i can do. Before we start chopping, cropping and construct your new list from your old one, i will need to talk you through your army and how you can improve it. This is so that you can have a better understanding of where i am coming from with my C&C and how you can apply the same techniques for future lists. Your list: [QUOTE]Chaos Lord: 145 pts -Terminator Armour -Daemon Weapon [QUOTE] This guy tends to kill himself quite often and i would recommend two DP with wings and mark of slanessh with lash of what ever it is. This will allow you to pull heavy weapons units out of position and enable them to fire and to push certain units away from objectives etc or into your other units. I recommend DP over sorcerors because DPs last longer, even if they can't join squads and are much better in close combat. [QUOTE] 5 Chaos Terminators: 175 pts -Terminator Champion -Chainfist [QUOTE] these guys are the second best terminators in the game ( SW being the best ), but they can equip themselves so well. I would use them as a suicidal unit that draws firepower and releases firepower. giving them all plasma weapons and 2 melta weapons should do the trick against any tank and monstrous creature you come across. [QUOTE] 10 Chaos Space Marines: 190 pts -Aspiring Champion -Plasma Gun -Heavy Bolter 10 Chaos Space Marines: 190 pts -Aspiring Champion -Plasma Gun -Heavy Bolter [QUOTE] I would recommend four scoring units for these three objective tasks: 1 unit - Objective sitting ( in your own DZ ) 1 unit - Objective contesting ( between your DZ and the enemies DZ, the middle of the 2 table or dead mans land ) 2 units - Objective capturing and denial ( in your opponent's DZ ) [QUOTE] 3 Chaos Bikers: 144 pts -Biker Champion with Power Weapon and Meltabombs -Icon of Chaos Glory 5 Chaos Raptors: 120 pts -Aspiring Champion with Meltabombs [QUOTE] I see you have gone for fast supporting units to with anti-tank. usually devestator squads or equivalents or deep striking units do much better and they aren't usually chosen for a single purpose like your fast attack options. Always make sure your units can always fill in two roles very effectively. At the moment i can't see them effectively holding up assualts, flushing out sniping positions or doing last minute objective grabbing because they cost too much for such a job. [QUOTE] 3 Obliterators: 225 pts Land Raider: 240 pts -Daemonic Possession [QUOTE] ok, the obliterators are better when used as multiple units and the land raider is just a massive target and over priced, a devastator squad can unload more firepower and it's only plus is deamonic, 14 all around and can deliver terminators. If you want more reliable anti-tank i would suggest 3 units of 2 obliterators that can unload 6 of any weapon you want. This is much more useful that a land raider could ever be and with their armour save and stats they can survive much better in cover that a land raider can and bed more useful. As a land raider and a terminator is almost a 1/3 of your army and that's in most cases better points spent elsewhere on another scoring unit or otherwise. [QUOTE] Chaos Rhino: 35 pts Chaos Rhino: 35 pts [QUOTE] i can't remember if they get smoke launchers and extra armour, but they are must haves for rhinos, if you want to keep them running. After talking about your list. It's time to produce the new list to give you a clearer idea of where i am heading with my C&C HQ - the princes don't need warptime as 2 daemon princes assualting a unit is enough and they don't need bolt of change as they can drag units out and get the oblits and other long range weapons to shoot. If your low on points you may want to take the wings of the princes. 1x Deamon Prince 1x Mark of Slaneesh 1x Lash of chaos 1x Wings 1x Deamon Prince 1x Mark of Slaneesh 1x Lash of chaos 1x Wings elites - your suicide unit and they are to support your rhino attack. I don't like terminators deep striking because they can't deep strike reliable and on time. 5x terminators 3x combi- plasma 2x combi- melta Troops - the most aggressive forces usually wins and chaos are most agressive with khorne bezerkers as troops 10x khorne bezerkers 1x power fist ( you need a champion? ) 1x melta weapon 1x rhino 1x smoke launcher 1x extra armour 10x khorne bezerkers 1x power fist ( you need a champion? ) 1x melta weapon 1x rhino 1x smoke launcher 1x extra armour 10x chaos space marines 1x power fist ( you need a champion? ) 1x mark of khorne 2x melta weapon 1x rhino 1x smoke launcher 1x extra armour 5x plague marines 2x plasma gun heavy support 1x land raider 1x daemonic possession 2x obliterators 2x obliterators I am sure that i have over spent, if i have you may want to consider having sorceror's with lash of chaos instead of deamon princes and stick 2 power fists onto your terminators. If so attach one sorceror to the plague marines and have them march from cover to cover to provide support and to stay alive and the other sorceror stays with the chaos space marine squad who helps the bezerker squads that are having trouble in combat. Phew, that was long. This themed black legion army is the most competitive that i can comew up with and it's basically a black legion marine squad with their sorceror or deamon prince commanders using mercenaries from other clans to do there their dirty work. I hope my C&C helps and if you think that i could change my approach to helping people out in anyway. Don't hesitate to do so as long as it is constructive criticism and not just a verbal abuse! thanks antique_nova
    Superior stamina may win battles, but the ability to quickly recover wins wars.

  6. #5
    Son of LO
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    i really hoped that the land was the thing you would stick with but i will see what i can do. Before we start chopping, cropping and construct your new list from your old one, i will need to talk you through your army and how you can improve it. This is so that you can have a better understanding of where i am coming from with my C&C and how you can apply the same techniques for future lists.

    Your list:
    Chaos Lord: 145 pts -Terminator Armour -Daemon Weapon
    This guy tends to kill himself quite often and i would recommend two DP with wings and mark of slanessh with lash of what ever it is. This will allow you to pull heavy weapons units out of position and enable them to fire and to push certain units away from objectives etc or into your other units. I recommend DP over sorcerors because DPs last longer, even if they can't join squads and are much better in close combat.

    5 Chaos Terminators: 175 pts -Terminator Champion -Chainfist
    These guys are the second best terminators in the game ( SW being the best ), but they can equip themselves so well. I would use them as a suicidal unit that draws firepower and releases firepower. giving them all plasma weapons and 2 melta weapons should do the trick against any tank and monstrous creature you come across.

    10 Chaos Space Marines: 190 pts -Aspiring Champion -Plasma Gun -Heavy Bolter 10 Chaos Space Marines: 190 pts -Aspiring Champion -Plasma Gun -Heavy Bolter
    I would recommend four scoring units for these three objective tasks:
    1 unit - Objective sitting ( in your own DZ )
    1 unit - Objective contesting ( between your DZ and the enemies DZ, the middle of the 2 table or dead mans land )
    2 units - Objective capturing and denial ( in your opponent's DZ )

    3 Chaos Bikers: 144 pts -Biker Champion with Power Weapon and Meltabombs -Icon of Chaos Glory
    5 Chaos Raptors: 120 pts -Aspiring Champion with Meltabombs
    I see you have gone for fast supporting units to with anti-tank. usually devastator squads or equivalents or deep striking units do much better and they aren't usually chosen for a single purpose like your fast attack options. Always make sure your units can always fill in two roles very effectively. At the moment i can't see them effectively holding up assaults, flushing out sniping positions or doing last minute objective grabbing because they cost too much for such a job.

    3 Obliterators: 225 pts Land Raider: 240 pts -Daemonic Possession
    Ok, the obliterators are better when used as multiple units and the land raider is just a massive target and over priced, a devastator squad can unload more firepower and it's only plus is deamonic, 14 all around and can deliver terminators. If you want more reliable anti-tank i would suggest 3 units of 2 obliterators that can unload 6 of any weapon you want. This is much more useful that a land raider could ever be and with their armour save and stats they can survive much better in cover that a land raider can and bed more useful. As a land raider and a terminator is almost a 1/3 of your army and that's in most cases better points spent elsewhere on another scoring unit or otherwise.

    Chaos Rhino: 35 pts Chaos Rhino: 35 pts
    I can't remember if they get smoke launchers and extra armour, but they are must haves for rhinos, if you want to keep them running. After talking about your list. It's time to produce the new list to give you a clearer idea of where i am heading with my C&C

    HQ - the princes don't need warptime as 2 daemon princes assaulting a unit is enough and they don't need bolt of change as they can drag units out and get the oblits and other long range weapons to shoot. If your low on points you may want to take the wings of the princes.

    1x Deamon Prince
    1x Mark of Slaneesh
    1x Lash of chaos
    1x Wings

    1x Deamon Prince
    1x Mark of Slaneesh
    1x Lash of chaos
    1x Wings

    Elites
    - your suicide unit and they are to support your rhino attack. I don't like terminators deep striking because they can't deep strike reliable and on time.

    5x terminators
    3x combi- plasma
    2x combi- melta

    Troops - the most aggressive forces usually wins and chaos are most aggressive with khorne bezerkers as troops

    10x khorne bezerkers
    1x power fist ( you need a champion? )
    1x melta weapon
    1x rhino
    1x smoke launcher
    1x extra armour

    10x khorne bezerkers
    1x power fist ( you need a champion? )
    1x melta weapon
    1x rhino
    1x smoke launcher
    1x extra armour

    10x chaos space marines
    1x power fist ( you need a champion? )
    1x mark of khorne
    2x melta weapon
    1x rhino
    1x smoke launcher
    1x extra armour

    5x plague marines
    2x plasma gun

    Heavy support
    1x land raider
    1x daemonic possession

    2x obliterators

    2x obliterators

    I am sure that i have over spent, if i have you may want to consider having sorceror's with lash of chaos instead of deamon princes and stick 2 power fists onto your terminators. If so attach one sorceror to the plague marines and have them march from cover to cover to provide support and to stay alive and the other sorceror stays with the chaos space marine squad who helps the bezerker squads that are having trouble in combat.

    Phew, that was long. This themed black legion army is the most competitive that i can come up with and it's basically a black legion marine squad with their sorceror or deamon prince commanders using mercenaries from other clans to do there their dirty work.

    I hope my C&C helps and if you think that i could change my approach to helping people out in anyway. Don't hesitate to do so as long as it is constructive criticism and not just a verbal abuse!

    thanks
    antique_nova
    Superior stamina may win battles, but the ability to quickly recover wins wars.

  7. #6
    Son of LO
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    i really hoped that the land was the thing you would stick with but i will see what i can do. Before we start chopping, cropping and construct your new list from your old one, i will need to talk you through your army and how you can improve it. This is so that you can have a better understanding of where i am coming from with my C&C and how you can apply the same techniques for future lists.

    Your list:
    Chaos Lord: 145 pts -Terminator Armour -Daemon Weapon
    This guy tends to kill himself quite often and i would recommend two DP with wings and mark of slanessh with lash of what ever it is. This will allow you to pull heavy weapons units out of position and enable them to fire and to push certain units away from objectives etc or into your other units. I recommend DP over sorcerors because DPs last longer, even if they can't join squads and are much better in close combat.

    5 Chaos Terminators: 175 pts -Terminator Champion -Chainfist
    These guys are the second best terminators in the game ( SW being the best ), but they can equip themselves so well. I would use them as a suicidal unit that draws firepower and releases firepower. giving them all plasma weapons and 2 melta weapons should do the trick against any tank and monstrous creature you come across.

    10 Chaos Space Marines: 190 pts -Aspiring Champion -Plasma Gun -Heavy Bolter 10 Chaos Space Marines: 190 pts -Aspiring Champion -Plasma Gun -Heavy Bolter
    I would recommend four scoring units for these three objective tasks:
    1 unit - Objective sitting ( in your own DZ )
    1 unit - Objective contesting ( between your DZ and the enemies DZ, the middle of the 2 table or dead mans land )
    2 units - Objective capturing and denial ( in your opponent's DZ )

    3 Chaos Bikers: 144 pts -Biker Champion with Power Weapon and Meltabombs -Icon of Chaos Glory
    5 Chaos Raptors: 120 pts -Aspiring Champion with Meltabombs
    I see you have gone for fast supporting units to with anti-tank. usually devastator squads or equivalents or deep striking units do much better and they aren't usually chosen for a single purpose like your fast attack options. Always make sure your units can always fill in two roles very effectively. At the moment i can't see them effectively holding up assaults, flushing out sniping positions or doing last minute objective grabbing because they cost too much for such a job.

    3 Obliterators: 225 pts Land Raider: 240 pts -Daemonic Possession
    Ok, the obliterators are better when used as multiple units and the land raider is just a massive target and over priced, a devastator squad can unload more firepower and it's only plus is deamonic, 14 all around and can deliver terminators. If you want more reliable anti-tank i would suggest 3 units of 2 obliterators that can unload 6 of any weapon you want. This is much more useful that a land raider could ever be and with their armour save and stats they can survive much better in cover that a land raider can and bed more useful. As a land raider and a terminator is almost a 1/3 of your army and that's in most cases better points spent elsewhere on another scoring unit or otherwise.

    Chaos Rhino: 35 pts Chaos Rhino: 35 pts
    I can't remember if they get smoke launchers and extra armour, but they are must haves for rhinos, if you want to keep them running. After talking about your list. It's time to produce the new list to give you a clearer idea of where i am heading with my C&C

    HQ - the princes don't need warptime as 2 daemon princes assaulting a unit is enough and they don't need bolt of change as they can drag units out and get the oblits and other long range weapons to shoot. If your low on points you may want to take the wings of the princes.

    1x Deamon Prince
    1x Mark of Slaneesh
    1x Lash of chaos
    1x Wings

    1x Deamon Prince
    1x Mark of Slaneesh
    1x Lash of chaos
    1x Wings

    Elites
    - your suicide unit and they are to support your rhino attack. I don't like terminators deep striking because they can't deep strike reliable and on time.

    5x terminators
    3x combi- plasma
    2x combi- melta

    Troops - the most aggressive forces usually wins and chaos are most aggressive with khorne bezerkers as troops

    10x khorne bezerkers
    1x power fist ( you need a champion? )
    1x melta weapon
    1x rhino
    1x smoke launcher
    1x extra armour

    10x khorne bezerkers
    1x power fist ( you need a champion? )
    1x melta weapon
    1x rhino
    1x smoke launcher
    1x extra armour

    10x chaos space marines
    1x power fist ( you need a champion? )
    1x mark of khorne
    2x melta weapon
    1x rhino
    1x smoke launcher
    1x extra armour

    5x plague marines
    2x plasma gun

    Heavy support
    1x land raider
    1x daemonic possession

    2x obliterators

    2x obliterators

    I am sure that i have over spent, if i have you may want to consider having sorceror's with lash of chaos instead of deamon princes and stick 2 power fists onto your terminators. If so attach one sorceror to the plague marines and have them march from cover to cover to provide support and to stay alive and the other sorceror stays with the chaos space marine squad who helps the bezerker squads that are having trouble in combat.

    Phew, that was long. This themed black legion army is the most competitive that i can come up with and it's basically a black legion marine squad with their sorceror or deamon prince commanders using mercenaries from other clans to do there their dirty work.

    I hope my C&C helps and if you think that i could change my approach to helping people out in anyway. Don't hesitate to do so as long as it is constructive criticism and not just a verbal abuse!

    thanks
    antique_nova
    Superior stamina may win battles, but the ability to quickly recover wins wars.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Ghost of Rage's Avatar
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    antique_nova, I'm going to assume you don't play CSM as you've made a few large errors when making a CSM list. Firstly, you want to keep Rhinos cheap, adding Extra Armor to them is a big no no and smoke launchers come standard on them (the only upgrade worth considering on a Chaos Rhino is a combi-melta). Lash princes I agree are super powerful (most consider them to be cheesey) but don't knock Nurgle Warptime princes, they are absolutely devastating. Termies are better loaded out with a single chainfist, a heavy flamer and combi-meltas. For troops, you need a champ for a powerfist, Berzerkers can't use melta weapons (except for meltabombs which are unneccessary) and belong in squads of 8. Plague Marines (as well as every other Chaos troop) cost way too much to objective sit, the way Chaos aproach objective games is to bring the fight to the opponent, then use the last turn or two to double back onto your own with a squad.

    Now onto the original list:
    Definately replace the Termie Lord with a Daemon Prince (either of the ones described above), they're much more versitile and won't accidentally kill themselves with their weapon.

    I'd suggest using a Karmoon Special termie squad as I have described above, they work much more efficiently.

    When using standard CSM, always equip a powerfist onto a champ and use 2 of the same special weapon, primarily 2x meltaguns or 2x plasmaguns (I personally lean more towards melta). The rest you have down pat with the Rhino and IoCG.

    Drop the fast attack here and add in another troops choice as described above. The fast attack selection in the CSM codex is not very good and will be out-performed by our troops selection any day.

    You heavy choices look good to me, though I would opt to get in another Oblit and make 2 squads of 2, just to help split your fire. If need be, drop the daemonic possession on the land raider to squeeze in any extra points.
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  9. #8
    Member angrySCORCH62's Avatar
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    Here's my new list based on your recommendations rage,especially the Karmoon Special which i've herd good things about. I have to drop 50 pts and the DP on the LR isn't worth 50, I've also herd that an LR isn't as good without the DP?

    HQ

    Daemon Prince: 130 pts
    -Wings

    Elites

    5 Chaos Terminators: 180 pts
    -Terminator Champion
    -Chainfist
    -Heavy Flamer
    -3 Combi-Meltas
    Troops

    10 Chaos Space Marines: 210 pts
    -Aspiring Champion (with powerfist)
    -Meltaguns
    -Meltaguns


    10 Chaos Space Marines: 210 pts
    -Aspiring Champion (with powerfist)
    -Meltaguns
    -Meltaguns

    10 Chaos Space Marines: 210 pts
    -Aspiring Champion (with powerfist)
    -Meltaguns
    -Meltaguns

    Heavy Support

    2 Obliterators: 150 pts

    2 Obliterators: 150 pts

    Land Raider: 240 pts
    -Daemonic Possession

    Transportation

    Chaos Rhino: 35 pts

    Chaos Rhino: 35 pts

    Total Points: 1550

  10. #9
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    I would do one of two things:

    Take out the Land Raider. It isn't ment to deliver one squad of CHaos Marines. It is a waste unless there are Either MoS+LC Terminators, or Khorne Berzerkers.

    Or

    Take out one of the Chaos Space Marine squads and add a squad of Khorne Berzerkers to be carried in the Land Raider.
    The Wolf time is upon us!
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  11. #10
    Member angrySCORCH62's Avatar
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    I've removed a squad of CSM's and replaced them with bezerkers but i'm still 5 over, i'm thinking of getting rid of a Rhino.

    The Land Raider is ment for the Terminators at first, but once it's delievered the troops, it will be repurposed to transport regular infintry or replace a Rhino if it gets wasted.



    HQ

    Daemon Prince: 130 pts
    -Wings

    Elites

    5 Chaos Terminators: 180 pts
    -Terminator Champion
    -Chainfist
    -Heavy Flamer
    -3 Combi-Meltas
    Troops

    10 Chaos Space Marines: 210 pts
    -Aspiring Champion (with powerfist)
    -Meltaguns
    -Meltaguns


    10 Chaos Space Marines: 210 pts
    -Aspiring Champion (with powerfist)
    -Meltaguns
    -Meltaguns

    10 Chaos Space Marines: 210 pts
    -Aspiring Champion (with powerfist)
    -Meltaguns
    -Meltaguns

    Khorne Berzerkers: 168 pts

    Heavy Support

    2 Obliterators: 150 pts

    2 Obliterators: 150 pts

    Land Raider: 240 pts
    -Daemonic Possession

    Transportation

    Chaos Rhino: 35 pts

    Chaos Rhino: 35 pts

    Total Points: 1508

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