Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
After spending a good few years away from the game, I've now come back and decided to collect a Chaos army (previously played with loyalist marines). So far, I've picked up a Chaos Battleforce set and a Chaos Terminator Lord and have it roughly like this:
Terminator Lord (bolter/meltagun combi and lightning claw)
5x Chosen Chaos Space Marines (with close combat weapons, Aspiring Champion with plasma pistol and power fist)
5x Possessed Chaos Space Marines
8x Khorne Berzerkers (only close combat weapons - no upgrades - Rhino transport)
10x Chaos Space Marines (1x flamer, 1x meltagun, Aspiring Champion with plasma pistol and power sword)
Pretty straight forward start I reckon. The question is, what kind of Marks to dish out? Seeing as it's a Black Legion I'll end up picking bits of everything. Was thinking MoT for the Lord (makes his invuln slightly better), not sure about Chosen (maybe MoS? Will eventually pad it out to 10-man) though.
With the normal troops I like the idea of being able to dish out some rapid fire bolters as well as being able to take on more troops with flamer or risk taking on tanks with the melta (or pesky hard guys) and will get another squad of 10. Again, not sure what Marks would go well with these guys!
Already thinking of expansion in future (beyond more Chosen and more normal Marines), and these are:
5x Terminators with MoT (probably deep strike them and equip them with close combat power weapons)
5 or 6x Chaos Bikes with MoN (gotta love toughness 4(6)!)
2 or 3 Obliterators OR Havoc squad OR Predator OR Vindicator
That's about all I can think of really right now! Would love to hear any ideas/suggestions etc from any experienced Chaos player! Thanks in advance!
Last edited by Pyroteknics; November 19th, 2010 at 21:19.
Hello Pyroteknics. Welcome to the boards. Feel free to contact either myself or another moderator if you have any questions. In the meantime, I'm moving this thread to the army list section, which can be accessed at the top of the Chaos forum homepage.
For your army, it would help if you post the point level of your games. Off the cut, it looks like around 750.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
HQ: He cannot go in a rhino in termie armour so either get some termies he can join or use a power armoured HQ. Personally I rate daemon princes better so you could just use the model as a termie champion to add to a pack of termies making a 6 man unit.
Elites: Possessed suck. I mean they are really poor. I would just mix in the possessed parts with normal CSM parts to make more marines with a little more character. Chosen are ok with lots of special weapons but they don't score and are not much better than regular CSMs. Drop them too.
Troops: Berserkers are good and need the rhino. Combimelta on the transport can help open up enemy transports for you to charge. Get a PW or PF for the champion. Regular CSMs need PF and 2 meltas. another rhino is highly reccomended. Get 2 10 man CSM squads using your chosen/possessed models. For icons take IoCG or risk the morale tests and take IoK.
Termies with combiplasma and a single Chainfist are great, IoT on them is good too.
Bikes are very expensive for what you get. Check out the loyalist space marine codex for how much bikes should cost and weep. Rhinos are good for all your troops.
For heavy support I would take oblits if you have few rhinos and AC/2LC preds/vindis if you have lots of rhinos. It keeps in with the philosophy of taking loads of tanks or none at all but not taking a few tanks as they die quickly.
Quorn! - Protein for the Protein God.
Hi, thanks for the welcome and thanks for moving this to the right place!
For my starter games, I'm looking at around 1,000pts or so. So yes, with the fluff listed I have so far it comes to around 700+ points, hence looking for something to expand to round it off near 1,000 - probably a heavy support as I'm really lacking in that department right now! Of course, definitely considering the alternatives. Right now, my army stands as very anti-infantry (with a little tank-busting power from the meltagun).
I've not yet played a game so can't comment on how well these guys will work as I have them right now. For the Terminator Lord, I figured he'd go well (in future) with a bunch of Terminators to deep strike (with MoT). My impression of the Daemon Prince is, while powerful (yay for Eternal Warrior!), I reckon he'd get a lot more firepower his way than the Lord (probably not much difference though). Maybe in future I'll have a Daemon Prince and a Chaos Lord
Are Possessed really that bad? Despite the odds of rolling a 6 for their special ability for power weapons, their other abilities don't seem too bad. I kind of see them as over-glorified Khorne Berserkers with a twist. With 5-man they'll probably die very quickly but I'll see how they do in a small game! If they totally suck then I'll retire them. As for the Chosen, equipping more with some power weapons sounds handy, especially they can Infiltrate, and with an Icon they can allow deep striking units to appear (namely Terminator Lord and some Terminators!) to really smash apart something. I hope.
I still have a load of bits left over from Terminator Lord, so could use some of those for any Terminators I get in future. By the looks of the sprue, I can only see a single combi-melta on the sprue so not sure how I would acquire more combi-weapons. Worth giving a 5-man squad a Autocannon or Heavy Flamer, or none? The HF could toast a lot of guys and would fit well with the squad/Lord/Chosen and equip a Chainfist more more tank busting fun.
I see what you mean with points for Chaos bikes vs Loyalist bikes - quite a difference! The only saving grace I see is using MoN for them and getting the points worth (if using them at all). It is either that or using Raptors. From what I remember with Loyalist Assault Marines, they used to die pretty quickly (even 10-man), but at least Raptors can use marks, though again not sure what to take. MoS would almost guarantee they hit first in combat (depending on enemy), MoN would ensure their survivability (though if I can kill them first I won't need to worry so much at this) or MoK for extra killy (probably not worth it either).
Not only that, the Raptor box set seems to have some strange equipment as standard: Champion with lightning claws (very handy), 2x bolt pistol and chainsword, 1x plasma pistol and chainsword and 1x meltagun guy. Could be worse I suppose, but adding extra members will cost (money wise) a fair bit!
Still deciding over the heavy support and you have valid points Mad Cat. Been talking to the guys at my local store and they are split between Obliterators (good for the unexpected/universal role but will probably get squished pretty quickly) or Predator (can fit for pure anti-tank or pure anti-infantry or a bit of both - high priority target to shoot at) or finally the Vindicator (daemonic possession and trundling forward with the army blasting anything within 24" - less priority than Pred but still deadly).
I mentioned Havocs to them as well and suggested, if I took any, to grab a Devastator box set and equip their weapons (bar plasma cannon, which for some reason we can't take!) to Chaos bodies. I also mentioned using Havocs as extreme close range fire support (since they can take 4 special weapons unlike the Loyalist dogs who can't!). 4x meltaguns or 4x plasmaguns in a 10 man squad with Rhino should be quite fun to see! Oh the choices!
Right, I think that's enough waffle for now, look forward to some more comments etc, thanks!
Edit: If you use Obliterator weapons and choose to use plasma cannon/gun, do you still have to use the "Gets Hot!" rule? From their background I don't imagine it would seeing as they "morph" weapons, and in game terms it's classed as "Obliterator Weapons".
Last edited by Pyroteknics; November 19th, 2010 at 17:00.
Lots of good questions. And welcome back to the hobby.
I'll address a few points for you. Starting off with your HQ, Daemon Princes really are the cream of the crop for CSM. While they are a fire magnet, that is a tactic Chaos can make use of. A DP won't really win a game for you; your troops will, though, and anything to distract your opponent from killing your troops helps out. Basically anything else you take should serve the function of support for your troops. We don't benefit from too many solo units that can dominate the field like some other armies.
Running a Lord as a secondary HQ can be nice, though. I do this sometimes. They can actually stay safe in a Landraider (for Termie armor), or blend in amongst infantry as to not get shot to pieces.
Now on to Possessed. Maybe compared to other armies' elites, they aren't that bad, but when you've got such solid troops selections as Chaos does, Possessed don't shine. Much has been discussed of them on these boards (you may want to poke around), but the nitty gritty of it is that they're unreliable (rolling for their skill after deployment means you don't even get to place them strategically), amount to lesser Berserkers given their damage output in just about every case, and are more expensive on top of all that. Give them a try to see for yourself, but I've never even thought about playing these outside of Apoc games - such nice models, though.
Chosen, on the other hand, can be nice elites. They really should be run with a solid special weapon load-out, however. A good 8 - 10 with 4 plasma guns and IoCG/N/T can be fun. Outflanking them in a Rhino can mean they're a durable back-up unit, too.
Terminators! You should have two combi-meltas if you already have the Lord set, and get the standard Terminators. For combi-plas, you can either buy loyalist bits, or make your own. Putting all those plasma pistols we get on our sprues to use is a lot cheaper if you don't mind hacking up some of the combi-bolters. For the heavy weapon, while I'm an admirer of the Reaper AC, the Heavy Flamer gives you more bang for your buck by far. With DS'ing off an icon, your Termies can often get in range to use it easily. And it's dirt cheap!
I don't really use any fast attack, so I won't speak to that, but for heavy options, all of Mad Cat's suggestions are good ones. Plus, you seem to be getting the same advice locally. Havocs aren't too great, but the option not mentioned, Defilers!, are. I love those guys. Run a pair, and have your opponent on edge as battle cannons blast away every turn and they advance to melee besides.
And Oblit weapons follow the rules for whatever they're shooting, so yes ... they can get hot and burn a wound off, but with their armor, it doesn't work out badly in most cases.
Hope all that helps. And good luck with the army building.
Thanks for your comments Dave!
I used the combi-melta on my Lord so I won't be able to use two combi-meltas in a future Terminator squad However, Chainfist(s) sound pretty useful (and yet again, the Terminator sprue comes with just ONE - but this time I have a second left over from Lord!). I look forward to the day I can use some! Perhaps 5x Terminators with power weapons (not fists), one with combi-melta and two with chain fists? Throw in the Heavy Flamer too and sounds pretty sweet.
As for the Chosen - I think I'll get some more Marines and equip them, like you suggested, with PG's, though it'll then not be a dedicated CC unit (was thinking 4x power weapons and MoS). Rounds them up to 10 man and can then pick them when needed. As for the Possessed, I think they'll stay as a 5 man squad and take them, like Chosen, when needed or some filler. Though by the sounds of it the Chosen look more reliable! But then they might just end up as over-glorified Khorne Berserkers
Still debating over a future Fast Attack choice. Seeing as bikes are somewhat expensive (compared to loyalist ones) points wise + upgrades, so may be more sensible to get Raptors instead (despite my concerns as stated earlier). Even with upgrades, Raptors sound like a more sound investment (just because they can't capture points doesn't mean they can't contest!).
Pity about Obliterators, when using the Plasma Guns/Cannons being affected by the "Gets Hot!" rule, but oh well. Like you say, their normal save (2+ and 2W) should cover them in most circumstances. Deep Striking them (if needs be) onto contested areas should help, or keep them in cover to blast things to bits sounds like the key to them. Defilers concern me with their so-so armour (F: 12, S: 12, R: 10 ) and their big size makes them a juicy target. Of course, blasting things to bits with the cannon sounds pretty epic while slowly marching towards the enemy for some CC action. Mind you, I think I'd rather take a Defiler over a Dreadnought (different force types I know - Elite vs HS).
Think I'll start by getting 2 or 3x Obliterators for first HS slot - good for covering all angles to start with before expanding past 1,000 points, then perhaps get a Defiler or a Pred/LR.
Thanks again for the comments, look forward to more!
The best havoc unit is 4 flamers in a 5 man squad in a rhino. But then a 10 man CSM swuad can have 4 special weapons too, just get 2 meltas and a combi melta on the champion and another on the rhino. This is better as your unit stays scoring. In a transport too they are almost as good as chosen since they dash 12" on turn one which puts them about where the chosen will get to on turn one.
Basicly as a chaos player we have the best sets of troops in the game so use troops extensively. Raptors, chosen havocs and possessed are all not scoring and to be honnest they don't beat a troop choice. Termies are worth it and the heavy support choices are all decent.
Quorn! - Protein for the Protein God.
Cheers for the extra comments.
Worked out with the stuff I posted in my first post and add 2x Obliterators (and a few tweaks to squad loadout and stuff - same squads as above though) it'd come to 998 points. Not too bad, eh? However, the one thing I noticed straight away was - not enough troops! Might be able to get away with it in a <1,000pts game but looks like I'll have to expand already!
Already looking at least another 2x normal Chaos Space Marine squads (both with flamer and meltagun) to start with, and maybe throw in a 3rd Oblit to get near 1,500 points if I can. Also been looking at converting a loyalist librarian (namely this guy) and giving him some Chaos fluff, mostly because the looks of the normal Chaos Sorceror's are a bit... dated. Still, something to look forward to (*coughs* and a Daemon Prince).