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I am posting this for one of my fellow players, he doesnt review forums too often. But does play daemons. The poor unfortunate fellow hasnt had too grand of luck against a few of us with his lists. But as an opponent, i can say he has made me sweat a lil every once in a while. hes still an aspiring general in comparison to the opponents he has. I myself tend to favor either side of the pointed ears(eldar or dark eldar, for those are looking at this funny) just mainly cause i like armies that take a lil finesse.
My real point behind this, is to try and find out what units he should really favor. He has access to most of the models in the range. the favored army size is usually 1500-2500pts a game. But we usually play at 2000.
what would be a solid list for him to consider?
I have tried several different combinations of daemons lists. I’ve run with all khorne, all nurgle, all slaanesh and a mix of everything. In my opinion, the strongest units in the chaos daemons codex and what he should use to make his list are as follows.
HQ choice = Herald of Tzeentch on a Chariot with master of sorcery Bolt of Tzeentch, Daemonic Gaze and Breath of Chaos. Hands down the best HQ and only 130 points plus you can take 4 of them.
Elite = Fiends, 6 of them with the might . They can assault up to 24 inc's away. That is just madness. With 5 attacks 6 on the charge and rendering. Amazing.
Troops = 5 Horrors with Bolt and a Changeling. 100 points is a steal. Boost them up to 10 if you want or go with several small 5 man units and lots of them. Plaguebearers are also amazing, one of the best objective holders in the game 5 to 7 is the way to go, they will never disappoint and tie up another unit in combat for many rounds. (note only one changeling allowed per army)
Fast = nothing.... ignore all, I'm not a fan of any fast choice we have.
Heavy = Daemon Prince. Now there is 2 ways of taking him. I personally go with Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt and Gaze but another great way to take him is with the Mark of Nurgle, flight, Iron Hide, Cloud of flies and Noxious Touch.
So based on the above, the list I always run with, give or take a unit of plaguebearers are as such.
HQ = 4 x HOZ, Chariot, Bolt, Gaze, BOC
Elite = 3 x 6 Fiends with Might
Troops = 4 x 5 Horrors with Bolt and 1 x changeling
Heavy = DP with MOT, Bolt and Gaze
that’s just under 2000 points.
Most players tend to stack their first wave going with all the shooting or assault. I always keep a nice mix, mainly because the Dark Gods don't seem to like me very much.
My win/loss ratio is pretty impressive, most times i lose is because the dice gods truly hate me not because of my army make-up or bad mistakes.
Just my two cents but if he wants to win more games, it's a good start. Also, if you really want to help your friend out, play a lot of games only up to turn 2, This will give him more practices with deepstriking and provide him with valuable knowledge on where to put what troops and what to look out for.
ok, thank you for the input, oddly enough, he doesnt run with hardly any of that. He likes to favor khorne mostly with a good splash of nurgle. but after seeing those setups, that looks a bit intriguing.
his last game was by far his worst. I was playtesting a DE list, and he was not having any luck at all. the first 3 turns ran so horribly for him that he conceded. This being why i want to help better his abilities.
He also seems to have the same bad luck with the dice gods too, so not all of his losses have been from bad planning, just bad luck...
I'd really like to see what he'll toss together after looking this over, and playtesting it. Again, thanks.
Yeah, Khorne and Nurgle as strong and as tough as they are, there the slowest moving units we have. That is a major issue when playing against fast moving armies such as Eldar/Dark and Tau. If he was to add that fast element to his lists or more of a shooting aspect, it would work wonders.
Last edited by syaoran; June 24th, 2011 at 07:49.
I ran that idea by him, and he just doesnt see what your pointing out..... He thinks its too much tzench, but i pointed out to him, thats one real aspect he lacks, shooty and enough speed for his army to function properly, plus i noticed on our last game, he STILL runs his halves too favored to one element(meaning, shooty on one half, combat on the other)...
Other than plaguebearers, is there any other decent troop selection he could choose for an objective holder/claimer? i've noticed he takes at least one of those squads every game, was wondering what else he could try.
Well...other then plaguebearers, the only other option I'd consider is Horrors but you would want a decent size unit. 5 of them would get wiped out pretty quickly if their primary role was being an objective holder. Horrors come with a 4+ inv save which is the best out of all our troop choices. That alone is cause to take them over the other troop choices. They also come with some pretty mean firepower as well which can mow down enemy units coming there way.
Stacking your army list is fine if your lucky with the dice. The odds are in your favor after all, just not when I'm concerned. I believe evening up you first and second wave provides better synergy to your game. It doesn't put you in the wrong mind set if you don't get your preferred wave. It has worked wonders for me.
I'm not telling him to re-write his whole list, just take some of the above elements and add them in. Other than that, unless he is willing to add that extra speed / shooting element to his list, or figure out a way for Bloodcrushers and plaguebearers to catch fast moving vehicles, he may find he win/loss ratio isn't so good.
Bloodcrushers. They are always my favorite unit. 5-6 with all upgrades is a gunline smasher, and loves to sit in front of footguard and never die.
For HQ, a bloodthirster and a fateweaver are always nice, mixed with a unit or two of fiends and a unit of bloodcrushers. If you dont like special characters I wouldnt suggest a lord of change in place of the fateweaver because they are on the same level as a deamon prince, for lots more points. Also, as an alternative, you can switch out the bloodthirster and a unit of fiends, for another unit of bloodcrushers, and another tzeentch prince. Same killyness, cept more shooting.
For Troops, I would suggest one/twp units of plaguebearers for objectives, one unit horrors for blasting, and one unit of bloodletters for marine killing.
Heavy. Since you already have a couple of really good close combat I would suggest tzeentch princes over nurgle. so Two tzeentch princes with gaze and bolt.
The list should look around
7 nurgle bearers
7 nurgle bearers
deamon prince X 2
I always prefer more solid lists with more solid units than having smaller units all around the board. Having larger more durable units is very important, only because of playing against guard lists with 200 lazguns in them.
5 blood crushers, even with 3 upgrades, are not impossible to kill. Dont even pretend.
now for youre friend, there are basically 2 lists that are successful at high point level games.
#1 being what the very first guy suggested. It's basically fiend spam and bolt spam.
#2 being a fate crusher list
Since the first guy already explained his lists, ill just explain the crusher list.
It always looks something like this:
2x Heralds of tzeentch w/master or sorc, we are legion, bolt
4x crushers w/ fury, icon, instrument
4x crushers w/fury, icon, instrument
3x crushers w/fury, instrument
7-9 Horrors w/bolt/changeling
I like to use 1 bolt caddy prince, that also serve as fateweavers "body guard" for my other 2 (not enough points for 3 at 2k) i use slaanesh princes w/might,hide,wings, slaanesh mark, pavane, and aura. I use pavane the turn i want the crusheres to charge but they are out of 12" so this is usually like turn 2-3. It brings the enemy closer and hopefully into charge range. This is necessary in crusher lists because we gave up intense speed of fiends, for the durability of crushers (with fateweaver nearby). The list can struggle against land raider heavy lists, dreadnaught heavy lists, and eldar/DE lists, in addition to grey knights and IG lists (with the guy who is -1 to enemy reserves). But with clever deploying and parking MC on top of objectives, (with troops nearby), wave serpents cannot shock us off the objective. By keeping the MC there, the troops can still be placed out of the way of the vehicles and still within 3"
Eldar -APOC- 6500 Points
Chaos Daemons -Fate Crusher- 3500 Points
Grey knights - 1000 Points
that list looks a bit more his style, except that he tends to like grinders a lil more than princes. but I will point this setup out to him to see what he thinks. I will let you know his thoughts shortly after I find out.
Grinders are fine and will add some much needed firepower, but you need 2-3 otherwise every Lascannon/Multi-Melta or other anti-armour weapon is gonna come his way as soon as he lands.
They key issue i'm reading from your buddy is that he likes powerful units, but lacks the vision/knowledge/realisation that mobility wins battles. (That, and a good pre-match sacrifice.) If all you have is footslogging CC powerhouses with no ranged attacks, then you'll get gunned down before enough of them can get into combat.
Incidentally, if he is regularly playing against your pointies, he really shouldn't need Hellblades -- they are best used against marines with their 2+/ 3+ saves.
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