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My army list building skills are mostly limited to 1500 points. Same goes for my gaming experience so I really don't know what to expect in a huge 3000 point game. Here is my attempt at an effective and fluffy army that includes elements from all four powers (with a dash of undivided neutrality).
HQ: Daemon Prince (mark undivided, daemon armor, daemon aura, daemon flight, daemon stature, dark blade, great weapon, spiky bits) - 173 points
Keeper of Secrets
Elites: Chosen x6 (mark of Tzeentch, terminator armor, reaper autocannon x2, powerfist x5, icon of Tzeentch)
Chosen Champion (warp focus, gift of chaos) - 381 points
Khorne Berzerkers x8 (mark of khorne, chainaxes, frag grenades, icon of khorne, furious charge)
Khorne Champion (chainaxe, talisman of burning blood, collar of khorne) - 214 points
Plague Marines x14 (mark of nurgle, infiltrate, icon of nurgle, bolter x15)
Nurgle Champion (plague sword, nurgle's rot) - 341 points
Troops: CSM x16 (mark undivided, bp & ccw x16, infiltrate, icon of undivided)
Champion (power fist, spiky bits) - 326 points
Plague Bearers x7
Fast Attack: Furies x9
Raptors x8 (mark undivided, meltagun x2, icon of undivided)
Champion (Champion is the daemonvessel) - 273 points
Heavy Support: Defiler - 150 points
Predator (twin-linked lascannon, lascannon sponsons) - 145 points
Dreadnought (twin-linked lascannon, dreadnought missile launcher, havoc launcher) - 160 points
Total: 2999 points
Comments? Suggestions? I tried to go for the favoured number of the gods even though it wouldn't do an undivided army any good, simply to make it fluffy. The raptors are mostly for tankhunting. I originally had a small 5 man squad with infiltrate for the daemonvessel, but I realised it was a waste of more than 100 points as the squad could have no other function after delivering the Keeper of Secrets. I am concerned that I might not have enough anti-tank, but I really have no idea. Anyway, have a go at the list and tell me what you think.
I see no point as to why you took both the Dark Blade and the Great Weapon. You can't get +1 attack for using both in CC. I'd drop the Darkblade for a DreadAxe, and then the great weapon for a CCW. You'll only be at 5 strength total, but you make up for it by denying any and all armour saves.
I also see no point for giving the Chosen the Mark of Tzeentch, and then not giving them any psychic powers. You're basically paying ten points for fearless, which is a poor investment, since you can get things like Fearless + Warp Scream for half that. Otherwise, they look like a fine unit.
The Zerkers are good - consider in investing into some Khornate Axes if you go up against alot of power armour enemies. They're cheap, and do alot against MEQs.
IMO, the Plague Marine unit is far too big. You're going to have one hard time infiltrating it within 12" of an enemy with that large of a unit. You didn't even give them any special weapons! The champion is nice, though. Be wary of the Rot near your own guys.
The troops need some work. Drop the nuglings - four bases won't do you much good in this big of a game. All the other daemons are fine. Split the CSM into two units of 8. This'll give you more options for when your summoned daemons start showing up. You did the Champion right - nice and cheap, with a PF.
Your fast attack choices are spot on. Rarely do I see a Raptor Champ. as the daemonhost, but I can see why you'd want it to be. Consider buying him some Chains to keep the Greater Daemon under control. They're almost a necessity when playing with a GD.
Heavy Support is iffy. The Defiler will most likely be the first thing to die. With no Indirect fire, he'll be a huge target sitting out in the open. The Predator and Dread could both do well with Daemonic Possession and Mutated Hull. In 3000 points, expect to see alot of heavy weapons come to bear. Both those will increase survivability.
I think your anti-tank is on the low end of acceptable. Give the plague marines two meltaguns, and that'll help alot (especially if you drop the squad size). Also, if you were to drop the Defiler, you could take a squad of Tank Hunting Havocs with Missile Launchers. They'll be harder to kill off than the Defiler, and will probably be more effective as well.
The codex doesn't say that the great weapon must be used in CC to grant the +1 strength bonus, just that taking the weapon adds +1 to the bearer's strength in CC. As for the dreadaxe, the darkblade is better for any situation (at least when mounted on a prince with my setup) except when attacking something with an invulnerable save. I don't play many armies that have more than 1 or 2.
The Tzeenchian terminators do indeed have a sorceror. The champion has gift of chaos with a warp focus. They are also terminators with 2 wounds each.
I see your point about the nurgle marines. I'll take another look at the heavy support choices as well.
Wow, by that logic I should be able to take a Single Lightning Claw and a Power Fist, allowing me to roll double my strength and re-roll any failed wounds, all at my normal initiative. Sorry, it just doesn't work like that. You have to choose which weapons you're fighting with that turn, and since the Great Weapon is two handed, it can't be used along with any other weapon during CC.Originally Posted by RaskeCheck the entry in the Book of Tzeentch about Chosen. You'll see that every single one of them becomes a Sorcerer, not just the Champion, and none of them get the extra wound.Originally Posted by Raske
Monstrous creatures count two handed weapons as one handed. The +1 strength from the great weapon isn't gained through swinging with it (stated in the rulebook, only 1 special attack type may be used per turn) but by equipping it. A powerfist doubles its strength when you strike with it. A lightning claw rerolls to wound when you strike with it. A power weapon negates armour saves when you strike with it. I fail to see how a bonus gained from equipping a weapon is negated by the rule stating you may only strike using one type of special attack per turn.
Edit: I did recheck the book of Tzeentch and you are correct. I've replaced the chosen with a normal unit of Thousand Sons upgraded to terminators. They are less effective with the loss of the autocannons and powerfists, but rules are rules.
Last edited by Raske; August 22nd, 2005 at 01:05.
Where did you read this? I'll believe you if you can cite me a page #, official FAQ ruling, or something official. Otherwise I see nowhere in the codex or BBB where it states such a ruling. The Kai Gun is a special exemption - it specifically states that those with Stature can wield it one handed. The Great Weapon does not. In fact, the Great Weapon specifically states it requires two hands.Originally Posted by RaskeNot quite. Following your logic, according to the BBB a Power Fist always doubles the users strength (BBB, page #46). The BBB only mentions "striking" when in reference to the initiative value. Therefore, I could take a CCW and claim I was striking with that, while still garnering the double strength from the Power Fist. A little skewed, don't you think? Pay one point, ignore the balancing factor of the Power Fist. Seems fair.Originally Posted by RaskeSee above.Originally Posted by RaskeYes. One of the main reasons I dislike Tzeentch. Although, you must admit - even without special weapons, a 2+/5+ save model with two wounds is a beast for only 32 points.Originally Posted by Raske
Both Army Builder and Games Workshop's software Enemies of the Imperium accept the great weapon as 1 handed on a monstrous creature. I still argue in favor of the +1 strength of the great weapon because a powerfist doesn't add anything to the model's profile. A str 4 sergeant doesn't become strength 8.
I don't accept that as official. There have been plenty of mistakes found in that program already, and I'm not surprised there are still more.Originally Posted by RaskeThat's fine, if you're willing to accept the consequences. If you can get away with it where you play, more power to you.Originally Posted by Raske