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Ok, so I was browsing around my local Games Workshop last weekend (managing to avoid the Black Templar frenzied staff I might add) and noticed the Winter Tournament thingy.
So I signed up with my Black Legionaires. As for other people, there were two Black Templar and one Imperial Guard players, the rest didn't have an army listed. So an all-round with slight bias towards Marine killing would be nice.
The sort of idea behind having a Sorceror is basically, I want one. I've also tried to make a list using as many troops as I can from my 1,500pt army. Other than that I don't really know what's going on. This is only the 3rd army list I've made.
The HQ will probably need work, my HQ units always do.
The Raptors. I was torn between Furies and Raptors.
HQ - Lord Yorvick 
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Elites - Obliterator Cult 
Troops - Dasturkh's Warriors 
8x Chaos Space Marines w/ Boltguns
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Aspiring Champion w/ Bolt Pistol & Power Weapon
Troops - Khabant's Reavers 
10x Chaos Space Marines w/ Bolt Pistols & Chainswords
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Aspiring Champion w/ Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon & Daemonic Strength
Fast Attack - Tyrhin's Raptors 
5x Raptors w/ Bolt Pistols & Chainswords
Aspiring Champion w/ Pair of Lightning Claws & Meltabombs
Heavy Support - Eildon's Despoilers 
6x Chaos Space Marine Havocs w/ Boltguns
Mark of Chaos Undivided
2x Missile Launchers
997 (I think this is correct. Might need to check Lord Yorvick's cost. I'm posting this from the Biology Dept. Computer Labs and I don't have my Codex with me, so Yorvick was an on-the-spot job.)
- Watch this space.
Naa, I just been busy and haven't had the time to check every list. But, since I'm here....Originally Posted by Zveroboy
I checked the cost of your HQ unit. Was a bit hard, since I didn't know if he's a Lord or a Leuit. If he's a Leuit, then you're overpaying. If he's a Lord, then you're underpaying. The margin is small, so not bad for someone without his Codex.
As for the layout, he's not bad. Why Doombolt if I may ask? I'd think Gift of Chaos would work better. It allows you to snipe off Sergeants and important models, and gives you added survivability with the Spawn.
The only thing I don't like is that he's slow, and underprotected. He has no Invulnerable save, and no way of reaching Close Combat quickly. If you plan keeping him footslogging, then stick with Doombolt. Otherwise, pick up GoC.
Couple other quick points -
*Why even bother putting the Plasma Gun into the Lascannon squad? I'll never understand why people think that's such a great idea. Drop it, and use the points for a second Meltagun in the other squad.
*Mixing Heavy Weapons is not a good idea. Autocannons and Missile Launchers don't complement each other. Pick one, and stick to it. See my article on comparing the two to find which one is good for you. Secondly, Tank Hunters is a good choice to take for them.
*I took the liberty of checking your points costs for you - very close for not having your Codex. Remember that Aspiring Champions come with a Pistol for free. The Raptors are the only ones that are off by a large amount.
*On the topic of the Raptors, I realize it's common practice to have the 2X L-Claws due to the model, but I don't feel that's a strong choice. They're expensive for what you get (Consider that a single Claw and Mutation is cheaper and still allows a two handed gun), and Powerfists are much more reliable. Also, six man squads are a bit small for dedicated assault units. Eight men is better.
To start I'll say that Caluin has wise advice as always.
Anyway, on to my ideas...You can save 5 points by giving this guy Mk Tzeench, although it might not fit with his fluff. Otherwise I would recomend droping mutation (if you are saving points) and visage for speed and aura, again igore me if I'm going against fluff. A power weapon + D str costs the exact same as a dark sword, so I'm going to recomend that as you get an aditional +1 str out of it.Originally Posted by ZveroboyUnlike Caluin I can see the point of putting in the plas, but I can't see the point of the asp champ. He is so expensive for a shooting squad. The squad I really like to field is a 5 man 2 plas gun infiltrating squad for 110. Start at 23 in and start blasting from turn 1, or start at 17-12 and walk up and rapid fire from turn 1 depending on your battle plan. Those guys will get you lots of AP2 fire for less, and you have tank hunting covered between the oblits and the havocs.Originally Posted by ZveroboyIf you can afford it a second melta wouldn't be bad, and I tend to prefer fists to powerweapons, but that is me.Originally Posted by ZveroboyNow I'm just quoting caluin (which makes me sound like I know what I'm saying), but a few more guys wouldn't be bad. Put in a fist instead of the claws (just replace his right arm with a pistol, he then looks like he has a fist).Originally Posted by ZveroboyAgain I agree 100% with caluin. Although if you are expecting to see a lot of marines I'll say missile launchers are probably the way to go. Tank hunter on these guys will make your opponent cry when you shoot.Originally Posted by Zveroboy
I've probably recomended far more points then you have free, but oh well.
Erm, if you have a doombolt on you HQ, why give him a second ranged attack? Its range is only 12" anyway. Give him a second meelee weapon.
Also, your second troops are short-ranged as well. They may be destroyed before they reach the vehicles. Maybe give them Infiltrate?
But I might be wrong, as I'm a newbie.
Here are my comments. I might sound drastic or too sure of myself, but those are just suggestions, so feel free to reject each one of them.
1th : To my opinion, your lord / lieutenant cost too much. Since you've called it a "sorcerer" and not a "sorcerer lord" I will assume it's a lieutenant with sorcerer ability. As Caluin said, i'm not sure that doombolt is the best choice. It might do some good, but not as much as wind of chaos or gift of chaos. Why did you pay for a bolt pistol while giving it doombolt (simple question) ? Probably for the +1 attack for 2 close combat weapons and because your model is equiped with a bolt pistol. My recommandation are : Drop D. Strength and D. Visage and D. Mutation and give him a melta bomb to have a (small) chance to blast dreadnoughts (this is the kind of thing you can be sure to encounter in 1000 point games against SM). You've saved something like 27 points (I didn't verified the point cost).
Also, don't let him walk alone, he should join the Khabant's Reavers unit to help them win close combat and then be safe from lord killing fire.
2nd : Obliterators are a good choice. But in 1000 points games, I would use only one and save 70 points.
3rd : You've made a balanced army, but I think you'll loose most of the games. You only have 2 troops choice of which only one is able to do significant damages, the Khabant's Reavers. According to my experience, in 1000 points games, your best strategy is to get close and personnal and to kill in close combat. Remember that for each phase of shooting, you get 2 phase of close combat. Since Chaos Marines can easily be fitted to be the best close combat troops after nids, it might be a good idea to take advantage of this fact. Later, I will explain my idea.
4th : The other point is your lack of mobility. You have 1 close combat troop that is going to combat on foot and 5 raptors that will be stuck alone without any close support as soon as they will start to move. You should at least give the Khabant's Reavers infiltration vet. skill. or a rhino (this is what I would do). The rhino will allow your troop to follow the raptors and they will support each others in close combat. Then, if you choose the rhino, you should reduce the size of your troop squad size to 9 to allow your sorcerer to board the Rhino together with the squad. I would also give infiltration to the Dasturkh's Warriors sqad to allow them to be in range of fire in the first turn. Then the plasma gun and the bolters will be usefull.
5th : Raptors cost a lot, loose those 5 guys and you loose 1/5 of your army points. For the cost of 5 raptors, you get a fully geared 8 CSM squad with MoCU and powerfist AC mounted in a rhino and still save 1 points. My point is that, considering the size of the game, this unit cost too much in return for a small performance (IMHO). Furies would do as good for half the price. Or, you might drop this unit and get the 8 csm squad and a rhino, make them CC oriented and have them go with the other rhino squad from before. More troop = more chance of success, especialy in smaller games.
6th : Your havoc squad seems allright, but I would also pay for infiltration as the will deploy last, so you can choose what you will shoot at and what will not shoot you. But then again, it's not an obligation. Can you tell me how you will use those ? And how you will use your obliterator. Remember that you are playing a 1000 points game, you less likely to encounter more than 1 heavy vehicle. Your havoc can take care of 1 tank / dreadnought. Then why the obliterator. I would drop the last one and go to the next advice.
7th : Up to this point, you should have saved something like 168 points, considering that you have retired the raptors and the obliterators and replaced those raptor with an additionnal close combat squad. If you've followed my ideas (which I doubt) you now have 33 models to field instead of 27. Not much more you will say ? But you have 168 points left. 168 points may be spent to buy 5 raptors with an AC equipped with a power weapon. Or you can add 10 furies for 150 points (i'm not sure of the point cost) and spend 18 points on you lieutnant (I didn't verified the point cost). Or you can add a 8 CSM squad with bolter, MoCU, infiltrate, lascannon and plasma gun. You will now have between 38 an 43 models to field, which is nearly twice the original number of models. And your army is still balanced but if you chose to use the furies, it's more close combat oriented.
Your army list would look like this :
10 CSM close combat squad rhino
8 CSM close combat squad rhino
8 CSM bolter and lascannon
and 1 of these :
5 Raptors AC power weapon
8 CSM bolter and lascannon infiltrate
Now you can kill Marines, Eldard, Orks, Necrons and Tau, and still have some chances against Tiranids.
Allright, I've modified your original list quite a bit, that's why I began by telling you to feel free to discard any of my suggestion. I did not verified the exact point cost, so I might be wrong somehow, but the basic idea is to get more troop, because the troops are the one that make you win. Caluin posted a list recently in which he exposes this fact, you should take a look.
P.S. : In case you didn't knew, MoCU = Mark of chaos undivided
Anyway, have fun at your tournament.
CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7
The reason he is "paying" for a bolt pistol is that it costs the same as a CCW and does more... so even if he never fires it, there is no reason not to take a bolt pistol over a CCW, unless you are statured or in terminator armour and don't have access to the pistol.
Wow, amazing what a bit of sarcasm can do.
May as well start from the top.
He's a Lord. Hence the "Lord" in "Lord Yorvick." Lord sounds better than Sorceror when used before a name.
The deal with him is basically, I would like a Sorceror, it's a unit that I've always fancied in my army. The plan was to tag him with Khabant's lot and get stuck in. I'm not really looking to model Daemon Weapons in him, he's going to be more of a sub-1000pt HQ unit that I can use in smaller games instead of Daemon Prince Faraleth.
In which case, Gift of Chaos and a Mark of Tzeentch would be best? Out of 1000 points, how much should I looking to spend on my HQ units? 10%? 15%?
Will drop these then.
Two meltaguns sounds nice, will add the Rhino in and drop to 9 marines. I take it Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers are standard?
For these guys, how about:
8x Marines w/bolters
2x Plasma Guns
Aspiring Champion? Maybe for that extra bit of close combat punch in case they get assaulted?
Will drop for 10x Furies.
Now this is funny. My 1,500pt army list contains the exact same squad (albeit with Tank Hunters and an extra Marine). When I made that list I was told by several people (granted that none of them where Caluin) that 2x Autocannons and 2x Missile Launcers was best for general purpose dakka-dakka.
So, with the remaining points then I'll cram in another close-combat squad and a Rhino. New list will be up during the weekend hopefully.
I know that MoCU means Mark of Chaos Undivided. I just like to be thorough.
Since when did Aspiring Champions come with a pistol? Please explain. Unless I am gravely mistaken, when a squad member is upgraded all wargear he then carries must be bought from the armoury.
- Watch this space.
Granted, I could've taken that at face value, but a name is sometimes just a name. You could've called him "Daemon Prince Yorvick", and not had met the requirements for Princehood.Originally Posted by Zveroboy"Best" is a matter of debate. The problem with doombolt is that you're basically paying 25 points for a low range Heavy Bolter. That may or may not be worth it to you. Against MEQs? Probably not. Against 'nids? Perhaps so, especially against Genestealers.Originally Posted by Zveroboy
But the reverse is true for Gift of Chaos - it's wonderful against MEQs and Imperial Guard, but not quite so wonderful against 'Nids, or something like Necrons. It all really depends on your most common opponent. If one is not given, I naturally assume it'll be MEQs, so that's why I suggested Gift of Chaos. In your case, I saw 2X MEQ and one Imperial Guard, so that's why GoC would probably work better.
15% is probably as high as you want to go for points wise. A general standard is 10% of your army total, but that's pretty low in the case of 1K point games. The closer you can get to that the better.Pretty much. They're extremely cheap for what they give you.Originally Posted by ZveroboyGood group. The aspiring Champion is up to you - I personally have to have one for every group, otherwise the squad just doesn't feel right. Remember that in order to Rapid Fire you'll need to be within charging distance of any unit in the game. Sometimes having a little extra insurance for Close Combat is nice. In cases like that, a simple Powerweapon or Powerfist is all you really need.Originally Posted by ZveroboyDifferent people, different opinions. I prefer to have speciality - have a role defined for each squad, and stick to that role. By combining different Heavy Weapons, you're generalizing instead of specializing. However, I will admit that 2X autocannon + 2X Missile Launcher isn't nearly so bad of a combination as some other ones I've seen.Originally Posted by ZveroboyAlways been that way. Champions are just upgrades given to a normal Marine. They carry the same equipment until you start replacing it with wargear from the Armoury.Originally Posted by ZveroboyI see I have another stalker on my hands.Originally Posted by Zveroboy