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  1. #1
    Member Draconian's Avatar
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    Black Legion 1500pts

    HQ
    Chaos Lieutenant-Daemonic Speed,Daemonic Mutation,Daemonic Strength, Furious Charge, Power Weapon, bolt pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades=119pts

    Chaos Sorcerer-Wind Of Chaos,Mark of Tzeentch,power weapon, bolt pistol=101pts
    Troops
    9 Chaos Space marines-Mark of chaos undivided, bolters, Aspiring Champion, power fist, plasma pistol, Daemonic mutation, plasma gun, plasma gun, Rhino(extra Armour, Smoke Launchers)=261pts

    9 Chaos Space Marines-Mark of chaos undivided,bolt pistol & ccw,Aspiring Champion, power fist, daemonic mutation, melta gun, plasma pistol=193pts

    Elites
    3 Obliterators=210pts

    Fast Attack
    6 Chaos raptors-Infiltrate, Plasma gun, melta gun, Aspiring Champion, pair of lightning claws,Daemonic mutation, Daemonic Strength=275pts

    3 Chaos Bikers-Aspiring Champion, Plasma Gun, Power Fist, Mark Of Chaos undivided=143pts

    Heavy Support
    Chaos Defiler-Daemonic Possesion,Mutated Hull=200pts

    Total=1502

    "I'm gonna stomp 'em to dust. I'm gonna grind their bones. I'm gonna burn down dere towns and cities. I'm gonna pile 'em up inna big fire and roast 'em. I'm gonna bash 'eads, break faces and jump up and down on da bits dat are left. An' den I'm gonna get really mean."

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  3. #2
    Spiky MindRaked's Avatar
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    Hi there, here's my advices about your list. I might sound harsh, but feel free to discard any of my suggestions since they are suggestion, not obligation.

    You can't play a game of 1500 points with a 1502 points army.

    1th : As everybody tend to do, you don't field enough models. Use this army against any IG player that knows how his army works and you won't get throught the 3rd turn alive. Your army is composed of 31 models, of which killing only 9 would have you loose 485 points (oblit. and raptors), 1/3 of your army cost :cry: . Playing for victory points, I would systematicly kill your obliterators first using lascannons, then template your raptors with any battle cannon, then have my way with the defiller :tongue: . By the time, you'll have killed a maximum of 1½ Troop and may be a tank if you're lucky. Then it's victory for me. Allright, it won't always happen like this. We'll look at this later.

    2nd : Your HQ are OK, but, by the way you've built your lord, you seems to be planing to have him go alone to the battlefield hoping he won't die until he can get in close combat. I'm not sure it's a good idea. Especialy if you play against TAU or any army that abuse of lascannons. My advice would be to make him a lieutenant and to drop eighter D. Strength or Furious Charge (I would drop the last one), Remove the Krak and Frag Grenades and pay for a Melta Bomb instead as the only thing you can blast with a krak grenade is a rhino or an Unmodified Dreadnought. You should save 28 points.

    Your sorcerer is not overcharged, that's good.

    3rd : An obliterator is good. It can kill many thing and still hide 6" of your units. 3 Obliterators are firemagnet and this squad will be eliminated during the first turn of the game. And it cost too much. Drop 2 oblit and save 140 points. You'll have almost the same efficacity. If your idea was to kill tanks and big monsters, Havocs cost less and are much more efficients.

    -2 models

    4th : Now, as mostly every list I see here, I can't figure a way to win a game with a massacre. Allright, you will charge with you CC squad, the raptors and the bikes. As soon as I kill your raptors, your at disavantage since the bike can only support and not do the job all by themselves. Since your list seems to be more CC oriented, I would suggest to use the 168 points we've saved from before to field an additionnal CC Squad. 167 points = 8 CSM, AC Power Weapon, Infiltrate, MoCU.

    +8 models + 1 troop choice

    5th : Looking at your fast attack, and at the rest of your army, you're worst nigthmare will be to face an heavy mecanized force. Your obliterators (if you still keep 3 of those) will be crush in the first turn and the Defiler will be the next. How will you kill tank and big monsters then ? Here is my suggestion.

    Your raptors are good CC fighters and should be used for this sole puropose. Then, drop the plasma gun (too costly to loose a raptor on overheat and rapid fire prevent charge) and consider a flamer or no additionnal special weapon. Since the are short in manpower, you shoul be sure that when they charge, they have a maximum of attack. Usualy, 1 raptor = 3 attack on charge. 6 raptors = average of 18 attack (- special weapon, + champion). Drop 1 lightning claw on your AC and pay for daemonic mutation, you'll save 5 points and have the same number of attacks and all the bonusses of L. Claws.

    The bikers should then be used as tank hunters. Turbo Boosters allow you to move up to 24" a turn and give you an invulnerable save, that's enough to get close to those tanks and use Meltaguns or plasmaguns to destroy them. Give those bikes tank hunter vet. skill and an extra special weapon (other than flamer) and they will make excellent tank killer. And since they are only 3, they won't draw much attention, which is good.

    6th : A defiler is always fun, but it's the best fire magnet of a chaos army. My advice would be to not spend too much points on this one as he's more likely to get destroyed fast. Never try to kill tanks with this one, he won't do any good.

    Now, if you've followed my advices, you should have 37 models, 3 troop choices and less "i will loose the game if you kill those" type of units. I would be able to win at least 2/3 games with this army.

    What are your thoughts ?
    Last edited by MindRaked; November 4th, 2005 at 19:46.
    MindRaked
    CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7

  4. #3
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindRaked

    3rd : An obliterator is good. It can kill many thing and still hide 6" of your units.
    I have to ask, how do you mean "hide"? He's not an independent character - he a unit, and therefore can be targeted regardless.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
    <3 rork. He does all the arguing so I don't have to.

  5. #4
    Now with STFU flames! Caluin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rork
    I have to ask, how do you mean "hide"? He's not an independent character - he a unit, and therefore can be targeted regardless.
    I have to wonder about that as well - Obliterators, even if taken in squads of one, are still full fledged units.

    Secondly, there is no 6" rule. Bygones of a dead era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconian
    HQ
    Chaos Lieutenant
    Spiky Bits before buying Mutation. With three attacks, they're essentially the same, except Spiky Bits are cheaper and don't count against Daemonic Gifts limit. That frees up enough points to buy Aura. Drop the Krak Grenades. Worthless. Go Melta bombs or go home.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconian
    Chaos Sorcerer
    What's the point of this guy? He's just an expensive Flamer template. Does he operate alone? Too slow to do that. Does he operate inside of a group? Too expensive for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconian
    Troops
    9 Chaos Space marines- (Plasma Gun squad)
    Drop the Plasma Pistols on the Champions. They're poor on such an expensive model. They're fine on line troops, since if they overheat you're not out much points. If they fry a Champion, you're out all of the Champion's points, plus basically the squad as well, since these days a squad is merely just a Champion delivery unit.

    Otherwise, looks great.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconian
    9 Chaos Space Marines-
    Use the points from the dropped Plasma Pistol to put a second Melta Gun in this squad. Secondly, drop the Plasma Pistol. Same reasons as listed above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconian
    Elites
    3 Obliterators=210pts
    I disagree with Mindraked here. Oblits work best in groups of three. Just be sure to place them correctly - they're not nearly so durable as they first seem. Best to think of them as Terminators with an exceptional array of weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconian
    Fast Attack
    6 Chaos raptors-
    Too small of a unit to make for an effective assault group. Secondly, you're putting a Rapid Fire weapon into a CC unit - bad, very bad. Drop the Plasma Gun, replace with another Melta gun.

    Another option is to drop the Champion and put three Plasma Guns into the squad. Makes them a headhunting unit, designed for putting holes into small, expensive squads. That type of unit tends not to live long however, due to overheats and counter charges.

    Another thing - why the L-Claws? They're expensive to the point of ineffeciency, and though I realize the Champion comes with them standard, it doesn't mean you need to have them like that. A single Claw + Spiky Bits is cheaper and will do about the same thing.

    Best thing to do is beef up the squad to 8 men, put two Melta guns in, and swap the claws for a Powerfist. Then they'll be extremely strong assault unit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconian
    3 Chaos Bikers-Aspiring Champion, Plasma Gun, Power Fist, Mark Of Chaos undivided=143pts
    No purpose to this unit. Plasma Guns on bikes are just plain bad - too expensive of a model to lose to the random overheat. You can't stick them in Close Combat, since they'll get eaten alive.

    I suggest just dropping this unit all together, and use the points to beef up your other squads. Namely, the raptors.

    Or, you can reinvest the points from this and the Defiler (in a moment) to buy a Predator with AC turret, Lascannons sponsons and Daemonic Possession.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconian
    Heavy SupportChaos Defiler-Daemonic Possesion,Mutated Hull=200pts
    Defilers came with Daemonic Possession for free. Don't buy it again.


  6. #5
    Member Draconian's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the help guys, i'll be re-writing my list today & probably post it tonight or tomorrow. For the sorcerer i was going to give him mass mutation or make him good in CC & give him warp focus & Gift of chaos. Do you think i should do one of these two ideas or just drop the sorcerer?, I think i just got a little overwhelmed by all the cool chaos stuff & got stupid things, thanks for helping out:yes:
    Last edited by Draconian; November 4th, 2005 at 21:20.
    "I'm gonna stomp 'em to dust. I'm gonna grind their bones. I'm gonna burn down dere towns and cities. I'm gonna pile 'em up inna big fire and roast 'em. I'm gonna bash 'eads, break faces and jump up and down on da bits dat are left. An' den I'm gonna get really mean."

  7. #6
    Spiky MindRaked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rork and Caluin

    I have to ask, how do you mean "hide"? He's not an independent character - he a unit, and therefore can be targeted regardless.

    I have to wonder about that as well - Obliterators, even if taken in squads of one, are still full fledged units.

    Secondly, there is no 6" rule. Bygones of a dead era.
    Oh sorry, I never use this rule anyway, but you are right about the fact that it won't work. My obliterator always advance in the open field as i want the other player to concentrate on it and forget everything else.

    And i believe that plasma on bike = mounted weapon so they don't overheat. I'll need to take a look
    [Edited] I believe that I was wrong, use melta instead
    Last edited by MindRaked; November 4th, 2005 at 21:20.
    MindRaked
    CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7

  8. #7
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caluin
    Secondly, there is no 6" rule. Bygones of a dead era.
    Except you can still only shoot independent characters if they are the closest target ("Shooting at characters" pg 51). Just in case anyone tries to go sniping their opponent's Space Marine commander in their next game .


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
    <3 rork. He does all the arguing so I don't have to.

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