Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Since my last list went South very quickly, I decided to take a different approach. Just for fun, I built an EC list, and now I'm starting to like it. In fact, I think I might like it more than I like my Mobilized Death Guard list.
*All units have Mark of Slaanesh if able.
*I realize the Daemonettes are not favoured. I'm okay with that. I dislike having that small of a unit.
Chaos Lord - 205 points
Chaos Marine Bike
[b]6 Noise Marines[b] - 202 points There are four of these groups
Bolt Pistol + CCW
One free upgrade to Aspiring Champion
Transport Rhino with Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers
Eight Daemonettes - 120 points There are two groups of these
Six Chaos Space Marine Bikers - 302 points
Melta Gun X2
Sonic Blaster X4
One free upgrade to Aspiring Champion
Predator - 145 points
Predator - 145 points
Some readers with a good memory will notice that this bears resemblance to my Death Guard list - everything is mounted, with the exception of the daemons, ofcourse. I suppose I could always make them a single group of mounted Daemonettes.
I was also tying to free up enough points to put some Chaos Hounds into the Noise Marine squads. 100 points will give enough for two into each, 150 will put three into each. I'd rather not sacrifice a Predator for that, though.
Very brutal, but awfully expensive. Why spiky bits, d. str, & d. mut? I'm assuming this guy will join w/ the other bikes, in which case there should be ample fire power and c.c. power to suffice. If this guy is going the road alone, then these are good choices.Originally Posted by CaluinI've thought about putting a blastmaster in my c.c. squads as well. Is it worth it? (seriously asking). Second, why not infiltrate them and save points. With the points saved, you could purchase a fifth squad. Infiltrate is usually more consistent than the rhino option, but you know this- I just have to yank on your chain a little :tongue: .Originally Posted by CaluinLove em, but again...d. mut & spiky bits? Maybe my games are different, but this always seems overkill.Originally Posted by CaluinPredator - 145 pointsOriginally Posted by Caluin
You know, I can't help but thinking a pred configured w/ a hull-las & h. bolter sponsons would serve this army much better. This configuration would manage the nid swarm & still allow you a very effective lascannon for dealing w/ pesky tanks and misc vehicles. In an army like this, you really need a vehicle that will always be usefull, and your current build just seems a little weak -vs- the bug swarm.Eh, there are no daemonettes on this listOriginally Posted by CaluinWoudl you talk a bit about the effectiveness of these pups please? I've never used them and am intersted in their use.Originally Posted by Caluin
Over all, I think your build doesn't need the daemonic stength on anything. It seems that you have plenty of tank power to manage enemy vehicles, not to mention melta guns. Is there another reason for having d. str on your lord and A.C.s?
You are correct in your assumption. He would ride with the biker squad, until it came time for charges. At which point, he'll most likely break off and assault a different unit than the biker squad. That's why he's so brutal. Strength is to get him up to eight, so he can insta-kill toughness four units.Originally Posted by boydgarrettI should've pointed out that I was taking a different approach with this list - since my other army is all infiltration, I tried something different. You'll notice that every single model is mounted in some way - the Predators, the bikers, the Rhinos.Originally Posted by boydgarrett
As for the Blastmasters, I'm not sure. I'm not convinced they'll serve a good purpose, but I figure it can't hurt. It's the only way for Chaos lists to cause pinning effects, and I've always found that even a little pinning can go a long ways. It also allows an impromptu light vehicle hunting should the need arise. I'm not opposed to dropping them and freeing up those valuable points.That was simply because I had points left over. Had to spend them on something.Originally Posted by boydgarrettBlasphemer!Originally Posted by boydgarrett
But, I see your point. I'll atleast think it over.Whoopsie, they somehow didn't make it into the post. They're added now.Originally Posted by boydgarrettWell, in most EC lists, you infiltrate your squads, so you don't see followers. By using the Rhinos though, I'm free to go that route. I honestly think they're very effective - they're a bit cheaper than your standard Marine, with basically the same stat line. The majority toughness rules don't apply in most cases, and with the low armour save, you know that they'll always take the first three hits. I'd rather lose three 12 point models than three 19 point models.Originally Posted by boydgarrett
Most importantly to me, though, is that they bolster the squad size without forcing me to pay for the Aspiring Champion upgrade.The Lord is so he can hit Strength 8. All the ACs was just because I had an odd amount of points left over. I like having Daemonic Strength even with Powerfists, since glancing a Dread or wounding a Wraithlord on a 3 rather than a 4 is a good thing, especially for only five points.Originally Posted by boydgarrett
I value your opinions Boyd - thanks for commenting. Given me quite a bit to think about.
Any reason both of your predators are the same? They both seem to be aimed at anti tank so wouldn't a twin linked lascannon be better? Or maybe even an auto cannon, you'd lose a strength but you would get two shots instead... Maybe have an anti tank predator and then a blastmaster and heavy bolter predator for infantry killing? Unless of course you play against lots of marines or high armor things.
I can read now!
If I'm mounting a HQ on a bike, I usualy give him a melta. Might as well use that BS5. Do you worry about spending that much on a lord that is only one PF away from instant kill?Originally Posted by CaluinNo problems with these guys. I think the blast master is a good choice with it's assault/heavy options, but I might suggest taking twin meltas in some of the squads.Originally Posted by CaluinWhile I haven't fielded deamonettes myself, my second army is Nids and I really find that rending only works with enough attacks behind it to let you roll those 6s. Therefore I agree that 6 is too few, but I might even suggest going up to 10 in these squads if you can find the points.Originally Posted by CaluinYou have spent a lot on all your asp champs. With Pfists I would always take D mut over D str. While str 9 is better vs dreads, you have enough las cannons/meltas that I wouldn't think that dreads would be a big worry for this list. Also while this squad is very mobile and powerful, it is REALLY expencive for 6 models, but I guess that is what bikes are, really expensive.Originally Posted by CaluinI really like the preds. The blast master is still cheap but fits the tank hunting role a little better then the AC, but still lets you switch to multi shot when you need it.Originally Posted by CaluinHmm... instead of hounds, what about spawn? They are about the same cost per wound as a hound, still have the +3 save, still have lots of attacks, and can be transported in the rhinos. They seem alround better then the hounds, except they can't move fast like the hounds can, which it meaningless with mounted squads.Originally Posted by Caluin
Anyways, feel free to ignore me and a great list over all, not that anyone would expect less.
Last edited by xrix1; November 7th, 2005 at 18:40.
It really depends on what role the daemonettes are serving. Ideally, they should always be tank hunters, but it doesn't always work out that way. Six is enough for tank hunting, but if your going after infantry, then you are right- six is just too few.Originally Posted by xrix1I've had problems keeping my preds alive, which is why I play an all infantry based army. To let you know, I upgrade my preds just like Caluin list, but they still have issues staying alive- a bad thing to be sure. Any advise?Originally Posted by xrix1
Sorry, been meaning to reply to this list for a while. I think it looks really solid, alot like my EC army. Just a couple of things though.
- The lord is one unholy beast, no doubt. The bike already gives plus one attack, so is mutation necassary? I know I get more than a few complaint about my slaanesh lord at 176pts, 205 may be a problem in tournies with % requirements. No big deal just a thought.
- I get 207 for your troop squads. Looks great otherwise.
- Again no problems, just food for thought. Your preds are most likley gonna be sitting hull down a whole game, essentialy being big targets and not adding to your otherwise mobile army. A havoc sqaud might suit you better. I don't need to tell you the advantages of autocannons with tank hunters .
All in all one bad ass list. I think its gutsy to use rhinos in 4th edition, but I have no doubt your skilled enough to use them effectivley. I would recommend infiltration, but I know that alpha legion list of your might lure you to somthing more mechanized.
OT: Congrats on making moderator, been a long tme comming and well deserved (Y) .
"Dare to be Naive"
If someone helps you, or you just like what they say, rep them
First, I would like to say that this is the second chaos list that I look at and with wich I feel I could win most of the games. You've exploited every strenght of this army and I believe you've done everything to protect you small size squads, which is great.
But, as ever, I have some comments ont this list.
1th : I won't say this so often, so appreciate the moment. I'm a Rhino fan. But in this case, I believe you've spent too much points on Rhinos. 232 points of Rhino for 4 x 6 mens squad seems to be a little bit high. I understand that it appears to be the best way to protect such small squads, but I feel like you could have fused those 4 squad to make 2 x 12 CSM infiltrating, and have more chance to win a close combat (we'll look a it later) and save 160 points, which would allow you to buy another squad.
2nd : Now, regardless of what I've said at point 1, I do believe that a 6 man EC squad with Warp Scream and CC weapons have good chances to win against a 10 Tactical Marine Squad as they strike first and have 3 times their number of attack. But allow me to question your choice of power fist as AC CC weapon. By doing this, you'll loose the benefits of Warp Screaming as you will strike last. But then again, there is more chance to hit something valuable by hitting last. But then again, your squads is 6 mens, which mean that loosing 1 is mostly tragic. So, my recommendation on this toppic is to use power weapons instead of power fist and then have a chance to wipe a squad in the first round with you 4*3 + 2 + 4 power weapon = 16 attacks before the ennemy can react, preventing the loss of any mens. Then the daemonic strenght upgrade would be usefull.
3rd : Daemonettes, why don't you make this squad 12 models ?
4th : Your heavy support is good. Blastmaster is an excellent replacement to the autocannon, but I believe you did this in order to get more fluff, am I right ? Were you tempted by the 4 Blasmasters Havocs squad with infiltrate instead ?
5th : Your bike squad is an excellent support unit.
6th : The inevitable subject : your lord. Giving him a bike is a good idea, he will be able to follow the rest of the army and support any squad that need help or leadership. But he seems to cost a lot, yet I can't find what to remove to make him cost less. Maybe the daemon weapon, but it seems to fit with the character.
Set asside of those comments, I believe this is a great list and that I would win most of the games as it is. Have fun.
Congratulation for your recently acquired moderator status, good job.
Last edited by MindRaked; November 8th, 2005 at 17:59.
CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7
So... much... to... respond to....
About the Lord -
No, I don't need all those upgrades. Mostly it was because I had about 100 or so points left over, and not much that I cared for buying. So squads got upgrades.
I'm not too worried about the Hidden Powerfists - he should easily be able to clear out his kill zone with effectively seven attacks per round before counting in the charge. Overkill? Oh yes.
About the troops + Rhinos -
I realize that infiltration is a much cheaper, and much more effective alternative. In fact, I often tout that in other people's lists. I just chose Rhinos as something other than the same ol', same ol'. I have a list that's designed for competitiveness, now I'd like a list that's fun and fluffy. It's a race between this list and my Mobilized Death Guard (which I love, BTW)
In response about the Powerfists - I'd like to keep them. But, I think if I'm ever going to try to use the Powerfist/Powerweapon combo on champions, this will be the list to do it.
About the Predators -
I like them how I have them. They have a great balance between fluff and effectiveness. I'm not so sure that I like the Blastmasters as a replacement for the Autocannons, but they're awfully fluffy, and I'd like the chance at some conversion work beyond the norm.
I try to always take them in pairs, so atleast one has a good chance at surviving the first round. The idea is to have so much armour on the table, that atleast a few of the tanks will be able to either deposit troops or get shots off.
About the Daemons -
I think I'm going to buy a squad or two of Mounted Daemonettes. While I realize they're probably not as effective as regular Daemonettes, I think having them mounted will synergize with the list a little better.How much are you counting for the Autocannon/Blastmaster? They're especially cheap in Troops choices. I've checked a few times, and still come up with 202.Originally Posted by thedrifter777Quite true - but I'd like to have something that will take the heavy weapons fire for the first round or two in order to save my Rhinos. The idea is to have something mean, nasty, and hard to put down drawing the fire.Originally Posted by thedrifter777No. I'm a firm believer that Blastmasters belong in basic squads, not in Havocs. They have too low of an AP to replace Missile Launchers, and too low a rate of fire to replace Autocannons. The secondary fire is nice, but Heavy Bolters are nicer.Originally Posted by MindRakedExactly. Ten is about right for taking on heavy infantry, six is okay for tanks. I settled for the middle road.Originally Posted by boydgarrett
Changes to the list -
So here are the changes I'm thinking, based on the feedback -
*Drop Spiky Bits + Mutation on the Lord. (+25) This knocks him to 175 points
*Drop Spiky Bits + Mutation on the Biker Champion. (+45)
*Buy Powerweapons for each Champion. (+5). This will allow them to keep their init bonus, while still having the Powerfist for times in need.
*Drop both units of Daemonettes. (+245).
So, the question is - what to do with the extra 245 points? I could buy another squad of Marines with a few points left over. Or perhaps a six man squad of havocs, four plasmas and a Rhino to scoot them around in. Suggestions?
Individual Questions -Well, not much you can do beyond giving it Daemonic Possession and Mutated Hull. Those two right there make it a beast to take down. Find yourself a nice patch of terrain to go Hull Down in that gives you clear fire, and you're set. The only thing you can do beyond that is go play Necrons and take some Monoliths.Originally Posted by boydgarret
I have a friend who used to be in the military. He has a story that goes - "Do you want to be in the Armoured Infantry, son?"
"Sir, no sir! I'd rather *not* be in the vehicle that gets shot at first, sir!"
I think the same principle applies here - tanks tend to have a nasty habit of not surviving the battles. I like to think that their job is to be as hard to remove as possible, so your troops can get the mission done.Actually, they can't be transported in Rhinos. That's why I didn't invest into them. Otherwise, I'd probably have one for each squad.Originally Posted by xrix1Originally Posted by MindRakedThanks guys. I appreciate the support greatly. Just remember that we mods are here for you - so if you have any issues or questions, I'm always happy to recieve PMs. (Makes me feel special, it does!)Originally Posted by thedrifter777
Whew. Did I miss anybody?
This is actually a lot like my EC list, except I use more bikers...
Also, you definately should give your champions power weapons. A six-man squad doesn't really have the models to soak up wounds or dish out enough wounds without the champion to make the powerfist all that effective.
As for the 245 points, you can get 9 Mounted Daemonettes for 252, maybe that would be a reasonable option. Personally, I like mounted daemonettes for their extra speed, my regular daemonettes seem to scatter in every direction but the right one and have to inch their way across the board while getting shot to pieces. At least the mounted daemonettes can get back into combat quickly.
And finally, for the lord, he's basically identical to mine, and he's an excellent choice. I use mine to turbo boost behind enemy lines and wipe out their vehicles and heavy support units. You just have to be very careful about how you use him, don't expose him to excessive lascannon fire (but you probably already knew this). And every time I play against Thousand Sons, I say a little prayer to Slaanesh, thanking him for my instant-kills against rubric signed marines.
One thing I noticed though, you have no frag grenades or doom sirens, so you might have some problems with people who pile into cover and wait for you to charge.