[1850] Black Legion (Power List) - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    LO Zealot numberofthebeastxxx's Avatar
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    [1850] Black Legion (Power List)

    TheCage (my roomate) asked me to post up this list since he just left till the weekend. From here on out this is his words:

    Ok before you see this list, know that it's quite unbalanced and what some people would cheesy or broken. Its very heavily powered despite it's unbalanced nature, and it will rip the enemy a new one with its cc ability.

    HQ

    Chaos Lord- Berzerker glaive, MoK, frags, spikey bits, essense, stature, armour, furious charge, feel no pain. (196)

    He will charge with S6, 8 attacks, WS6, and initiative 6. To survive shooting he gets a 2+ armour, 4+ invulnerable save with a 4+ feel no pain roll.

    Chaos Leiutenant- MoK, bolt pistol, power weapon, bike, aura, armour, furious charge, feel no pain.

    Retinue- 4 champs. 2 with power weapons, 1 melta. All have furious charge, feel no pain, MoK, and daemonic armour, and frag grenades.
    (475)

    Yes, your prob thinking its a complete waste of points. But consider this: The squad gets a 2+ invulnerable save when turbo-boosting, they can then assault with tons of p. weapon attacks, and they will hit 1st against most opponents. Even if the enemy has powerweapons of their own to hurt em back, they all have feel no pain, and T5 because of the bikes.

    Elites

    2 Obliterators (140)

    Troops

    8 Marines with infiltrate and 2 plasma guns. (156)

    8 Marines with infiltrate, champ w/ power fist and plasma pistol, 2 melta guns. (194)

    Fast

    9 Raptors with Aspiring champ w/ power weapon and deamonic strength. All have furious charge and infiltrate. (273)

    Heavy

    Dreadnought with plasma cannon. (115)

    7 havoks with 4 missle launchers and tank hunter. (199)

    It's exactly 1850pts. And again, I know it's unbalanced, but i think with all these uber-powerful units, I stand a good chance of winning. Comments welcome.

    Last edited by numberofthebeastxxx; January 31st, 2006 at 01:18.

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  3. #2
    Member Sabrewulf's Avatar
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    This list has 6 models that cost over 100 points ... each. Then there's the oblits. Honestly, a bunch of 'nilla marines with bolters, or slaaneshi marines with sonic blasters, or tau firewarriors etc etc ... basically anything that puts out a lot of shots ... will ruin your day. It doesn't even have to be a shooty list, just a list with lots of troop choices.

    Did i mention ordnance? I have an iron warriors 1500 list with a defiler, a basilisk, and a vindicator ... I've seen marine lists with two vindis or two whirlwinds. All they need is one good pie plate hit at 475 points vanish.

    Speeder lists will also break your list down very quickly. Assault cannons will cause a couple of failed saves in that bike squad ... try a ravenwing list with 5 or 6 of them. A speeder-type list could also just waste your heavy support and stay the hell away from those super-expensive HQ units.

    Talkin' about close combat ... 'nids will also beat this list. No matter how good your bikes / glaive guy are, they will still strike simultaneously, even first in some cases, and their best troops (genestealers) are cheaper than yours. The bike squad can't/won't make a 2+ save against 20 genestealers, and a hive tyrant or a broodlord will eat glaive-boy for breakfast.

    I give this one a thumbs-down ... and not even for the cheese. I think I could beat it with a number of different armies.

    Sabre
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    LO Zealot numberofthebeastxxx's Avatar
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    I agree with you about the points waste. Although I don't think his squads will die as quickly as you think. They will turob-boot right off the bat right? So they wil have 2+ saves plus feel no pain on top of that. Between, the prince, the bikers, the raptors, etc. are too high priority and too hard to kill b4 they get into cc. You would have one turn of shooting tops against the bikes, not many units can win against these guys in cc. It takes something like an average of 8-12 hormagaunts to kill a single marine, let alone one with a 2+ save and feel no pain rule. How will the nids hit 1st? The marines have I5, 6 in the case of the lord/lietenant. Unless their stealres the marines will win. I think it's the unbalanced-ness of this list that will dring it down. Not enough models.
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    This list is a first turn or die list. Even if you do have first turn you can still lose very badly. Have you ever heard the exprewssion "don't put all your eggs in one basket" so what if you have a 2+ inv. save bolters and lasguns (any basic weapon for that armour will still pick you off. also the raptors probably will wipeout your opponent on the turn they charge, then they will be countered. tell your friend not to even start it

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    LO Zealot Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    HQ

    Chaos Lord- Berzerker glaive, MoK, frags, spikey bits, essense, stature, armour, furious charge, feel no pain. (196)
    This guy needs even more speed than what his continual flipping out from the glaive will give him.

    Daemonic Speed. I realize that the extra movement that you gain due to speed cannot be stacked with his flipping out movement, but he could still use the 12" charge.

    And he should because this guy needs to be in hth ASAP, both to take advantage of his CC ability and to protect him from shooting. Even with all his protection he is a big target who cannot take full advantage of terrain to conceal his advance due to being Khorne, so some sort of speed bonus is a must.

    If you need to find the points somewhere, I'd drop essence as in hth he will usually kill everything in the 2" radius so its unnecessary, or be fighting something so dangerous that an extra wound won't matter. ie: Nightbringer, or anything with STR 10. While you could argue that the essence will help him against shooting, he's better off with more speed so that he doesn't get shot at.


    In addition, more speed will prvent someone just leading this guy around with a Rhino or speeder since he'll be able to catch it and kill it if they try.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    Chaos Leiutenant- MoK, bolt pistol, power weapon, bike, aura, armour, furious charge, feel no pain.

    Retinue- 4 champs. 2 with power weapons, 1 melta. All have furious charge, feel no pain, MoK, and daemonic armour, and frag grenades.
    (475)

    Yes, your prob thinking its a complete waste of points. But consider this: The squad gets a 2+ invulnerable save when turbo-boosting, they can then assault with tons of p. weapon attacks, and they will hit 1st against most opponents. Even if the enemy has powerweapons of their own to hurt em back, they all have feel no pain, and T5 because of the bikes.
    These guys have a free daemon icon coming to them and they SHOULD take it.

    Particularly since they'll need some extra bodies around them once they get to the opponents side of the board.

    Honestly I think you'd be better served with just a bike squad which your lieutenant could join since it would be a lot cheaper, but there are certain reserve missions that might screw you (by having the squad be off the board while your lieutenant is on it.) so I see why your buddy did this.

    Oh, and while you're spending this many points, you should go whole hog and buy them some axes of Khorne. At least the Lieutenant should. Its not that much more expensive for him and its worth the points. For the guy without a power weapon, buy him a Khornate chainaxe at least. Its dirt cheap and worth more than it costs.

    Actually, if the Lieutenant had the Axe of Khorne and you were looking to find some points, you could just buy chainaxes for all the chosen drop their power weapons and still perform fairly well.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    Elites

    2 Obliterators (140).
    Fine as far as it goes, but since the rest of your army is so small, you might want to consider dumping these for more marines and/or daemons. I realize that the Oblits are a good deal, but with the small amount of targets this list presents, they'll get targetted.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    Troops

    8 Marines with infiltrate and 2 plasma guns. (156)

    8 Marines with infiltrate, champ w/ power fist and plasma pistol, 2 melta guns. (194)

    Good units, but the first unit doesn't need to be 8 man strong if they're just a plasma gun delivery device. Its obviously not for fluff reasons so I wouldn't bother.

    This list would be well served with some daemons to come in off of the bike and raptor squad. Bloodletters, furies, or fleshhounds to keep the khorne/undivided thing going here.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    Fast

    9 Raptors with Aspiring champ w/ power weapon and deamonic strength. All have furious charge and infiltrate. (273)
    Well, I'd consider dropping a raptor or two from this squad, buying them the mark undivided and giving them a free daemon icon. This big of a squad won't be able to take the best advantage of the hit and run nature of raptors, and you really want the reroll on Ld checks. There's nothing worse than having your uber elite unit break at the wrong time.

    Plus, by having the icon, you increase your striking range and capability. ( By having a bunch of daemons appear off of the already fast moving raptors.)

    Oh, and if it were me, if I had the points, I'd take at least one meltagun here. Just in case. I realize that this unit is not meant to attack tanks, but since your army is so small, it wouldn't hurt to have some insurance kicking around in case your obliterators ect. don't take out the enemies heavy armour.


    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    Heavy

    Dreadnought with plasma cannon. (115)
    Pay the points for extra armour. Its worth it. There's nothing more annoying than a stunned Chaos Dreadnought.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    7 havoks with 4 missle launchers and tank hunter. (199)
    Again, these guys need the mark undivided so they don't run away at the wrong time. It won't cost much more and you get to throw in another free icon, just in case your others get pooched.

    As for missle launchers, I'm not a fan. I'd rather go with autocannons and tanks hunter for shredding medium tanks and transports, or go whole hog and get lascannons, but that's just me. My missle launchers always miss for some reason.


    Honestly the biggest problem I see with this list is that chosen retinue. For the points you spent on it, if you still wanted to go with bikes, you could buy 7 'regular' Khorne bikers, upgrade one to a champ, give him some gear, give them all furious charge and still have enough points left over for a couple small squads of furies or one of bloodletters.

    But eh. The all champ squad has its appeal at least for modelling and coolness reasons.
    Last edited by Grey; January 31st, 2006 at 13:54.
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  7. #6
    Member Sabrewulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    I don't think his squads will die as quickly as you think. They will turob-boot right off the bat right? So they wil have 2+ saves plus feel no pain on top of that. Between, the prince, the bikers, the raptors, etc. are too high priority and too hard to kill b4 they get into cc. You would have one turn of shooting tops against the bikes, not many units can win against these guys in cc. It takes something like an average of 8-12 hormagaunts to kill a single marine, let alone one with a 2+ save and feel no pain rule. How will the nids hit 1st? The marines have I5, 6 in the case of the lord/lietenant. Unless their stealres the marines will win. I think it's the unbalanced-ness of this list that will dring it down. Not enough models.
    As your/your roomie's opponent, I would have three things to shoot, like you say ... the prince, the bikers, and the raptors.

    I would honestly be more worried about the raptors, because you can control them ... they can CC, break a unit, retreat, then jump back into CC with a diff unit. Very tough to tie down, and with 9 models, they can absorb a few losses.

    As for the lord and the bikes ... if I put a rhino in the way, they have to charge it. If I put 2 six-man squads out front, with a line of marines 23" behind, your bikes/lordo MUST annihilate those squads, and then they stand in the open like pop-up targets. Plasma/heavy bolters/krak missiles should do the job admirably well.

    Turn 3, any survivors move closer, into rapid-fire range, and unless they max their turn 2 sweeping advance and their turn 3 blood-rage rolls, it's rapid fire time.

    Again, I have a marine army designed to mess up assaulty opponents. It has 2 dreads, 2 vindis, some assault cannon termis, 3 plasma-toting tactical squads, and two tornado landspeeders. And some infiltrating devestators. Guarantee that I could take out two of the above three units before they reach CC.

    Don't get me wrong, I LIKE uber lists. But there are better uber lists out there.

    Sabre
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  8. #7
    Senior Member Arizzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    It's exactly 1850pts. And again, I know it's unbalanced, but i think with all these uber-powerful units, I stand a good chance of winning. Comments welcome.
    Much have been said already that I fully agree with. I, however, disagree with your comment about all these uber-powerful units. You have three such units. And they are so expensive that the rest of the army is not really that much of a threat to a standard 1850 point army.

    It looks like a fun army, both from a modelling perspective and to fool around with your mates. But its not a power army in my opinion. Its an army with a few powerful units.

    The thing that really hurts my eyes is the 500 point ltd. and retinue. I cannot imagine how a 500 point unit can be worth it. That unit alone is over 25% of the entire army . Sure they have some nice abilities, and not much can stand in their way in cc, but the kind of attention they will get while the lord is being herded around the field by a vyper or speeder is staggering.

    All in all it will be a blast to play this army. Its fun to field very powerful units, but when power and points are summed up there is not much that can beat the bang for the buck you get from a 14 point space marine.

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  9. #8
    LO Zealot numberofthebeastxxx's Avatar
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    I agree with you all. I think the list will lose horribly or maybe pull of a tie against most good players. But he insisted on posting it anyway. Maybe now he'll believe me... And oh yea, you cannot have any kind of speed upgrade with the berzerker glaive grey. I believe he's doing all these super powerful units cause he wants to play me (normally I only play 1850 with my Annihilation Angels army) so he's ddecking his guys out with wargear (he doesn't have enough models, sry no daemons).

    Personally I would just empty a bunch or rapid firing bolters into his bike unit, a couple lascannons into the lord, and deal with the rest fo the army at me liesure. Maybe now with all these comments he'll listen to me... Geez, I've only won 3 RTT's...
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    Member Sabrewulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    Geez, I've only won 3 RTT's...
    Now that's interesting. What armies / general army lists did you field at said Rogue Trader comps?

    Sabre

    PS you could even make that anuther thread, unless you wanna keep this one going.
    Comfirmed Disciple of Chaos

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    LO Zealot Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberofthebeastxxx
    And oh yea, you cannot have any kind of speed upgrade with the berzerker glaive grey.
    Actually you can.

    The description of the Berserker Glaive says that you cannot join another unit, have followers or ride a steed.

    And it has been stated elsewhere that the extra speed for 'fleet of hoof' takes place in the same phase as the blood frenzy, so they do not stack. However, the 12" assualt that comes with taking speed is not similarly removed.


    There is no mention of there not being any speed upgrade(beyond the no steed and no stacking of movement in the firing phase. While Blood Frenzy takes place in the movement phase it negates any sort of shooting, so this has been taken as a given.) in either my Chaos Codex or the csm faq version 4.0.1


    Perhaps you have something to document your claim?

    EDIT: Freaking hell. Its in a newer version of the codex apparently. Supposely on a page '48'. ****. I swear, if thats true I should be able to send them in my old codex in exchange for the newer updated one without having to pay a dime. If you release a codex with the same title, cover ect. as the rest and never bother doing a recall....

    A 'newer' printing my ass. I've already had to buy at least 3 new versions of the codex and rules over the years.

    Thats all asuming that that printing is in fact 'newer'. Does anyone have a date of publication? My CSM codex says 2002. Anyone have the date of the 'new' one?

    FURTHER EDIT:

    Here's the thread detailing the changes for anyone else who's as outa touch as me. http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...daemonic+speed (Reconciling CSM Codex printings)

    Sheesh this stuff is old. And here all the time I thought the changes in the CSM codex came out in updates, not new codexes. I mean, new codexes had been mentioned to me before, but I never really bought it. Whenever someone talked about the 'new' Chaos codex, I thought they were referring to the one I own in comparision to the one that came out after the publishing of the 3rd edition rules. Anyone who stated anything else, I just blinked and dismissed them as hopelessly mad. I mean, bringing out new codexes without changing the cover so you could tell them apart? Nah. Bad buisness practice. Never happen. Of course it has.

    FURTHER, FURTHER EDIT: Sorry for ranting. I took exception to being told I was wrong about something that I thought was straightforward, by someone who with their knowledge thought that the problem was straight forward. So.... sorry.

    You know. My buddy fielded a list with the stature, speed khorne general with the glaive in it last year and killed all comers with it. I wish someone had brought all this up then because apparently I've been living in a cave with a rock covering the entrance for all this time.

    FURTHER AND HOPEFULLY FINAL EDIT: You know, I think I've seen references about this before on this forum and just blinked and thought 'insane' to myself.
    Last edited by Grey; January 31st, 2006 at 19:18.
    "No one has a monopoly on wisdom."-S.W.G.

    Fluff Master Clan initiate.

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