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  1. #1
    Senior Member shango's Avatar
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    (1700) emperors children LaTD

    here is my list any comments and/or suggestions would be very helpful.


    Chaos lord with: stature, master crafted great weapon, spiky bits, aura, essence, flight,
    strength, resilience, MoS, combat drugs, furious charge

    Chosen retinue for lord with:
    chosen champion with flight and furious charge x 5
    includes power fist and bolt pistol x2, pair of lightning claws x2 and mutation x1

    538 pts.

    Arch heretic sorcerer with: Mos, combat drugs, aura, speed, talons, wind of chaos and infiltrate

    160 pts.

    Mutants with blessing of tzeentch x 15 including 2 flamers

    186 pts.


    Mutants with blessing of tzeentch x 15 including 2 flamers


    186 pts.


    Traitors x5 including Agitator with combi-bolter, plasma gun x1 and lascannon platform

    83 pts.


    MoS Chosen x6 including Aspiring champ with doom siren, melta bombs, and power weapon
    sonic blasters x3
    blastmaster x1
    meltagun x1

    220 pts.


    Defiler with: indirect fire, twin-linked lascannon, blasphemous rune, warp amp and mutated hull

    265 pts.


    Total pts.= 1638
    Total models = 49

    Well, what do you guys think?

    What would you change?


    Caluin it would be nice to hear your opinion too. (if you have the time)

    Thanks in advance...


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  3. #2
    Member onodera's Avatar
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    What do you need Traitors for? For a lascannon? Drop plasma and agitator, then, and get a unit of Sentinels.

    And your Defiler is a huge pointsink. He needs only Indirect Fire. And something extra, if you think you'll be ambushed.

    Master-crafted great weapon? It... might... work, but... I'll wait for someone more experienced to give his opinion.

    Why does your stand-alone squad of Chosen... consist of Chosen? It looks like it could be replaced with vanilla CSM.

    Why do your mutants try to get into battle quickly? They don't pack a punch! You can't have Aspiring Champions (both HQ slots are taken), but at least give them Mutant Bosses with power fists. Having two Big Shootas in each squad is nice, but once the squads are tied in close combat, they are useless. And how can you get Daemons in your squads? I'll need to check Codex:Aramgeddon.

    What's your general battle plan? Knowing it could help the people here to tune your list to it.

  4. #3
    Senior Member shango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onodera
    What do you need Traitors for? For a lascannon? Drop plasma and agitator, then, and get a unit of Sentinels.

    And your Defiler is a huge pointsink. He needs only Indirect Fire. And something extra, if you think you'll be ambushed.

    Master-crafted great weapon? It... might... work, but... I'll wait for someone more experienced to give his opinion.

    Why does your stand-alone squad of Chosen... consist of Chosen? It looks like it could be replaced with vanilla CSM.

    Why do your mutants try to get into battle quickly? They don't pack a punch! You can't have Aspiring Champions (both HQ slots are taken), but at least give them Mutant Bosses with power fists. Having two Big Shootas in each squad is nice, but once the squads are tied in close combat, they are useless. And how can you get Daemons in your squads? I'll need to check Codex:Aramgeddon.

    What's your general battle plan? Knowing it could help the people here to tune your list to it.
    The traitors can infiltrate some heavy fire power to the front lines. As they will be on the front lines hopefully they can draw some fire away from the more important units.

    The defiler is intended to be anti-tank and also creates some serious leadership penalties via warp amp and blasphemous rune (they stack). Mutated hull so he can survive long enough to get close and inflict said penalties.

    The great weapon combined with combat drugs and furious charge gets the Daemon Prince up to strength 10 on the charge ( I just couldn't resist.)

    The Chosen unit can infiltrate some serious firepower to the front lines and contains only assault weapons (sonic, melta and doomsiren) Move and shoot=Awesome. Also in order to get the sonic weapons and keep with the emperor's children theme (for fluffy and modeling reasons) they must be elites. The LaTD list only allows for one allied unit of CSM elites, thus they are chosen.

    The mutants move quickly in keeping with the whole mobility theme and can get into close combat quickly to tie up whatever squad or squads they need to while the more important units get where they need to be. They also serve as kind of a meat shield (albeit a fast moving one).

    The general plan is to have fun modeling and painting and to wind up with a very fast and mobile army (infiltrating, assault weapons, flight and moving as cavalry) The defiler is the only unit that starts at the back of the board and that is limited to 6" movement but it's weapons can reach just about anything on the board.

    Your critique is appreciated. Please keep them coming. I am still looking to tweak and any good suggestions will be seriously considered.

    Thanks again.

  5. #4
    Member onodera's Avatar
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    Scrap D. Strength and your great weapon. Get a Dark Blade+CCW instead. One more attack (better than one reroll) and even cheaper!

    You're right about the Chosen, though. GW codices are like taxation laws. Every time you read it you find you were wrong. (15 minutes later) No, I was wrong that you're right. You can field normal CSM troops with MoS. They just count as an Elite choice. That'll cost just 192 points.

    I still don't like your Defiler. If you're going to walk him across the board, his cannon will scatter further. And I think he'll get popped before he reaches CC. I'd get a Bassie, another small Traitor squad and a couple of Sentinels. A little more points, but more targets and more anti-tank firepower. You can even swap your plasma guns for sniper rifles to try pin squads.

    Oops, it look like I've started to write my own list instead of helping with yours.

    P.S.
    I've thought that those flamers muties have were deamons. Stupid me.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Arizzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shango
    The traitors can infiltrate some heavy fire power to the front lines. As they will be on the front lines hopefully they can draw some fire away from the more important units.
    Yeah, thats generally a good idea :yes: Although I would like to see more of them in an army like this.

    The defiler is intended to be anti-tank and also creates some serious leadership penalties via warp amp and blasphemous rune (they stack). Mutated hull so he can survive long enough to get close and inflict said penalties.
    NO! (

    This is not the best way of doing this. I see what you are trying to do, but instead of getting a screwdriver and a drill you are buying a swiss army knifte at twice the cost. Every round your defiler shoots his battlecannon (and that should be every round) it cannot also fire the twin lascannons. And the amp and rune only come into play when the defiler is up close and personal, and it really sucks at that. Sure its a monstrous creature, but as soon as you run into a hidden powerfist it will go down. And it has a very low WS.

    Keep the defiler, but shave everything off him exept the indirect fire upgrade. That saves you well over 100 points. Use the defiler as long range firepower aimed primarily at troops and transports. Thats the way to make him earn back his points. There is no amount of upgrades you can buy for the defiler that will protect him anywhere near as good as placing him far back and behind cover.

    If you wan't a cc monster with amp and rune, then go for a dreadnought. It will be cheaper. And you can almost afford it with the points you save on the defiler.

    The great weapon combined with combat drugs and furious charge gets the Daemon Prince up to strength 10 on the charge ( I just couldn't resist.)
    I make it out to strength 9 on the charge. If you give him a Darkblade he can reach strength 10. And he will then also be able to take a second cc weapon and thus get an extra attack.

    The Chosen unit can infiltrate some serious firepower to the front lines and contains only assault weapons (sonic, melta and doomsiren) Move and shoot=Awesome. Also in order to get the sonic weapons and keep with the emperor's children theme (for fluffy and modeling reasons) they must be elites. The LaTD list only allows for one allied unit of CSM elites, thus they are chosen.
    A tricksy way of getting two squads of chosen But in my opinion you don't really need the retinue for the lord. He already has a boatload of strength 10 attacks on the charge, strikes before nearly everyone and can ignore the first wound he takes. Basically he can handle himself. Adding the retinue just increases the overkill factor and makes the overall point cost amazing.

    The mutants move quickly in keeping with the whole mobility theme and can get into close combat quickly to tie up whatever squad or squads they need to while the more important units get where they need to be. They also serve as kind of a meat shield (albeit a fast moving one).
    Yep, thats the way to use them.

    The general plan is to have fun modeling and painting and to wind up with a very fast and mobile army (infiltrating, assault weapons, flight and moving as cavalry) The defiler is the only unit that starts at the back of the board and that is limited to 6" movement but it's weapons can reach just about anything on the board.
    As mentioned earlier I have a serious problem with your defiler, so I strongly suggest you look into how you want to use that model. My overall suggestions would be this:
    1. Give the lord a darkblade & extra cc weapon if you are aiming for strength 10 on the charge (I have rarely found this to be necessary).

    2. Drop the retinue. The lord does not need them. He is monstrous, so can be shot at even with those guys hanging around, so they don't even provide any protection for him. And since a tooled up Slaaneshi lord is one of the absolute best cc monsters in the game they don't really add much other than points.

    3. Trim down the defiler by about a mile. You are gonna be glad you did. You are trying to tool him up to do two fundamentally different things. One of them he is very good at on his own, and the other will never be his forté no matter how many points you sink into him. Sit him way back behind cover and let him drop pie plates on whatever you like. Thats what the defiler is there for.

    4. Get a dreadnought with amp, rune and twin lascannon if you like the idea of a tank hunting cc monster that scares everybody away.

    5. Get more of the little guys. Your army has some of the cheapest troops available. Yet you are only sporting 49 guys in a 1700 point army. I could outnumber you with my regular Emperors Children army! Just look at how cheap those traitors are. Sure they could not hit water if they fell out of a boat, but its a very cheap lascannon! And more importantly, it won't die from one lucky shot.

    You have a very good start. You have given in to the temptation of chaos a bit too often for my taste. All those upgrades are fun, especially from a modelling point of view. But the law of diminishing returns will drag you down when you spend over 100 points upgrading a vehicle that can still be killed by the very first shot of the game.

    I can see why you are doing this, since your fluff suggests that the mutants and traitors are led by super-elite Slaaneshi troops. But from a cost/efficiency point of view it is not the best way to go.

    Arizzar
    If the radiance of a thousand suns
    Were to burst at once into the sky,
    That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One...
    I am become Death,
    The shatterer of Worlds.

  7. #6
    Senior Member shango's Avatar
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    [I can see why you are doing this, since your fluff suggests that the mutants and traitors are led by super-elite Slaaneshi troops. But from a cost/efficiency point of view it is not the best way to go.

    Arizzar[/QUOTE]
    I make it out to strength 9 on the charge. If you give him a Darkblade he can reach strength 10. And he will then also be able to take a second cc weapon and thus get an extra attack.
    Hmmm...looks like you are right with that. I will consider the Darkblade.

    Trim down the defiler by about a mile. You are gonna be glad you did. You are trying to tool him up to do two fundamentally different things. One of them he is very good at on his own, and the other will never be his forté no matter how many points you sink into him. Sit him way back behind cover and let him drop pie plates on whatever you like. Thats what the defiler is there for.
    ok.


    Get a dreadnought with amp, rune and twin lascannon if you like the idea of a tank hunting cc monster that scares everybody away.
    can't, it's lost and the damned. (no allied heavy support)

    Get more of the little guys. Your army has some of the cheapest troops available. Yet you are only sporting 49 guys in a 1700 point army. I could outnumber you with my regular Emperors Children army! Just look at how cheap those traitors are. Sure they could not hit water if they fell out of a boat, but its a very cheap lascannon! And more importantly, it won't die from one lucky shot.
    I will look into this. The idea of painting gobs of guardsmen does not appeal to me though....

    You're right about the Chosen, though. GW codices are like taxation laws. Every time you read it you find you were wrong. (15 minutes later) No, I was wrong that you're right. You can field normal CSM troops with MoS. They just count as an Elite choice. That'll cost just 192 points.
    page 42 Codex Eye Of Terror 4th paragraph it says lost and the damned may include 0-1 allied elite choice, and then the last line says "units with a Mark of Chaos are always Elites choices. So, I could field a total of 2 units of allied noise marines?

    Thanks

  8. #7
    Senior Member Lord Ramon's Avatar
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    (1700) emperors children LaTD

    Having read through everybody’s posts carefully, I’d certainly agree about the Defiler.

    At an average of 60points each, your Chosen are very nice, but sooo expensive, and still only as strong as standard CSM. Flying Possessed are 37pts each, so 7 including an Aspiring with Mutation and a Powerfist is 299pts, and you have 3/5+ save. Maybe you can try these lot out too.

    I like your Mutants, same format as mine.

    If you really want to yank your enemies chain, dump your Chosen, and field 3 Defilers. Although it sounds weird, if you intend to advance with your Defilers, why not give the Smoke Launchers, just in case. Against a gunline of Heavy Wpns, one Defiler will get mashed. Use recovered points to up your Traitors to at least 7, and increase the size of your MoS CSMs.

    If the usual kinds of Hvy Wpn squads are shooting 1-2 weapons at your Defilers, thus wasting their Bolters, Splinter Rifles etc, they’re not shooting at your combat troops, Lord etc.

    Obviously three Defilers will still leave you low on manpower, and I do think this is a concern. Are you sure in a 1850pt force, that your Arch Heretic is worth his points, with such an expensive Daemon+Retinue.

    Hope this helps

    Lord Ramon

  9. #8
    Senior Member shango's Avatar
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    At an average of 60points each, your Chosen are very nice, but sooo expensive, and still only as strong as standard CSM. Flying Possessed are 37pts each, so 7 including an Aspiring with Mutation and a Powerfist is 299pts, and you have 3/5+ save. Maybe you can try these lot out too.
    Good point about the point value of the chosen vs the value of the possesed......I don't think I will be using possesed though..(just because the fun is in wasting all the points.)

    I may drop the Chosen retinue though.....

    I like your Mutants, same format as mine.

    thanks. It seems to make good sense.

    If you really want to yank your enemies chain, dump your Chosen, and field 3 Defilers. Although it sounds weird, if you intend to advance with your Defilers, why not give the Smoke Launchers, just in case. Against a gunline of Heavy Wpns, one Defiler will get mashed. Use recovered points to up your Traitors to at least 7, and increase the size of your MoS CSMs.
    WOW! Awesome idea.

    Only problems are; it seems rather unfluffy. Suddenly it's an ordnance army rather than a mobile one and, I can hear the cries of cheese ( I do want to have some opponents so I can play.)


    Are you sure in a 1850pt force, that your Arch Heretic is worth his points, with such an expensive Daemon+Retinue.
    Actually, now that you mention it, no.


    I think I am looking to add some more traitors, and I would also like some more noise marines. ( Can I legally? )

    I LOVE the 3 defilers idea but I want to have fun. Winning is secondary.

    Hope this helps
    It does.

    Anybody else care to give some input?

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