Black legion - 1500 [needs some help] - Warhammer 40K Fantasy

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  1. #1
    Pomogromogranite! Aether-Moose's Avatar
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    Black legion - 1500 [needs some help]

    Hey guys, this is my Blakc Legion list i have posted a couple of times before, but lately it has either been getting pounded, drawing, or barely scraping wins. I was wondering if some of the veteran players out there would give me some help. Thanks.

    [HQ - 177]

    Chaos Lord
    Infiltration; Dark Blade; Furious Charge; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Speed; Daemonic Aura; Damonic Ressilience; Close Combat Weapon; Frag Grenades - 177

    [Elites - 324]

    2 Obliterators
    - 140

    8 Chaos Space Marines
    Mark of Khorne; Bolt Pistols; 7x Khornate Chainaxes; Chaos Icon; 1x Aspiring Champion with a Powerfist and Talisman of Burning Blood - 192

    8 Chaos Space Marines
    Mark of Khorne; Bolt Pistols; 7x Khornate Chainaxes; Chaos Icon; 1x Aspiring Champion with a Powerfist and Talisman of Burning Blood - 192

    [Troops - 312]

    8 Chaos Space Marines
    Infiltrate; 5x Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons; 2x Melta Guns; 1x Aspiring Champion with a Powerfist - 184

    6 Chaos Space Marines
    Infiltrate; Mark of Chaos Undivided; 4x Bolters; 2x Plasma Guns - 128

    [Fast Attack - 277

    7 Raptors
    2x Melta Guns; Infiltrate; 1x Aspiring Champion with a Power Weapon and Daemonic Mutaiton - 277

    [Heavy Support - 208

    6 Havocs
    Infiltrate; Tank Hunters; 4x Autocannons; 2x Bolters - 208

    Total: 1502 [What to drop...]

    So, yea. Fixed the points [mostly] and now I just need to tweak it. I made the Prince an Infiltrating Speed-Lord with Str. 8 On the charge. Yay.

    Last edited by Aether-Moose; August 10th, 2006 at 04:06.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett on Quidditch
    I couldn't help but imagine some poor guy looking up to find a Badger hurtling towards him, about to wrap itself around his skull.
    [ 1500pt. Chaos List, C&C! ]
    -=W: 2 -D: 0- L: 3=-

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  3. #2
    KITTENS GIVE MORBO GAS! theyak's Avatar
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    Hey Moose. So, it could be that people are becoming wise to your playstyle. People at the store I play at have become a bit more challenging for my alpha boys because they know my playstyle and are able to predict where I am going to go and what I will do.

    If you are using a formulaic playstyle, perhaps change it up a bit. deploy differently, or make better use of terrain available.

    Perhaps switching out that lord to be unstatured(all sneaky like) with speed for the counter-charge. How would you like the army to play and field?

    Do you want suggestions on how the army could change?
    W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
    WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

  4. #3
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    790 (x8)

    Which areas are you getting beaten in? Who are you getting beaten by?
    Also, I make your raptors out @ 298 pts.
    I make your 8 man melta team @ 200 pts
    I make the 7 man plasma team @ 146 pts.
    I make the havocs @ 240 pts..

    I think that one of us is having maths issues, although as I'm demented, it's likely to be me heh heh. Third opinion anyone?
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  5. #4
    Member Lord Kritislik's Avatar
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    Third opinion here

    I make 298 points for the Raptors
    the 8 man melta team is 200 points
    the 7 man plasma team is 146 points
    the Havocs are 240 points

    Well done Karmoon,
    we know who was the swat at Maths :yes:

  6. #5
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    790 (x8)

    T'anks for that matey.
    Aight mOose. sort out your scores and then tell us what tactical problems you're having. Uncle Karmoon and Papa Yak will be happy to help
    If you need a break down of points then PM me mmkay?
    Last edited by Karmoon; August 3rd, 2006 at 14:30.
    LO Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Anyone who's as loyal and motivated to doing what they love as you are is respectable in my book
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyric
    I'm taking leave of my senses and shall be out of my mind until further notice.

  7. #6
    Pomogromogranite! Aether-Moose's Avatar
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    Okay, fixed the points [mostly]. Most people shoot me full of many, many holes before I can shoot, and then assault them. And then when I do, they end up charging other squads in too, and out-numbering me. When My Berserkers and D. Prince get their, there's almost nothing left, leaving them with an entire army, maybe minus a sqaud, versus my two troops and an HQ. I just can't seem to survive shooting, and I'm not going to blame it on my luck, although I did fail 6 out of 9, then 7 out of 10, AND THEN 6 out of 7 3+ saves. In one night. Please, help me guys.

    Oh yea thanks Karmoon for straightening out the points costs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett on Quidditch
    I couldn't help but imagine some poor guy looking up to find a Badger hurtling towards him, about to wrap itself around his skull.
    [ 1500pt. Chaos List, C&C! ]
    -=W: 2 -D: 0- L: 3=-

  8. #7
    Senior Member xrix1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æther-MØØSE
    Chaos Lord
    Infiltration; Dark Blade; Furious Charge; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Speed; Frag Grenades - 151
    Personaly I would put an invulerable save on him. Also he is going to be out front with a possible first turn charge with the raptors. The zerkers are going to take a few rounds to get there, so I wouldn't expect this guy to survive the game. An idea would be to use him to attack shooting squads and just tie up your opponent to let the rest of your army get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æther-MØØSE
    2 Obliterators
    I love 'em and almost never take an army without 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æther-MØØSE
    8 Chaos Space Marines
    Mark of Khorne; Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistols; 7x Khornate Chainaxes; Chaos Icon; 1x Aspiring Champion with a Powerfist and Talisman of Burning Blood - 200
    If you are short on points, just drop the frags. They are handy but 1/2 the killing power comes from the fist anyway. Otherwise a very standard and nice squad comp for Zerkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æther-MØØSE
    8 Chaos Space Marines
    Infiltrate; Frag Grenades; 5x Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons; 2x Melta Guns; 1x Aspiring Champion with a Powerfist - 192
    I take 2 or three of these squads all the time. Again nice layout and no wasted points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æther-MØØSE
    6 Chaos Space Marines
    Infiltrate; Mark of Chaos Undivided; 4x Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons; 2x Plasma Guns - 129
    These guys are 128. How do you have an odd number when you are multiplying by and even number (6) and then adding on two even numbers?

    Anyways I usualy cheap out and just take 5 guys with 2 plas. It's not much but I find the little extra points can be added elsewhere (like into a CC squad) where the bodies will do more good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æther-MØØSE
    7 Raptors
    2x Melta Guns; Infiltrate; 1x Aspiring Champion with a Power Weapon and Daemonic Mutaiton - 277
    I love raptors but they are very costly. They are going to be up with the lord turn 1, so you can use them to tie up shooters, and do damage early on, but between these guys and the lord a lot of points are going to be taking on his entire army on turn 1. If you find these guys proforming so so for you, I might recomend either more plasma squads, or another infiltrating CC squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æther-MØØSE
    8 Havocs
    Infiltrate; Tank Hunters; 4x Autocannons; 4x Bolters - 240
    You can save 16 points by taking infiltration off here if you want. I usaly find MkU nessisary on my havocs as they always take some fire, and I also usualy know where I want to place them from the get go as well. Also by placing down some heavy shooters first, you can force your opponent to not deploy in their fire lanes, which may open up some jucy infiltration spots.

    Anyway, there are my 2 cents. On the whole it's a nice list, so maybe your opponents are just getting used to you. You can always try adding some things they arn't expecting, #1 on my list for that would be either bloodletters or deamonettes.

  9. #8
    Pomogromogranite! Aether-Moose's Avatar
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    Okay, I would really love to be able to take more CSM sqauds of eight men with Meltas and CCWs, but I don't have the points to spare! I can't decide what I should take out, I have alot of expensive squads [Berserkers, Raptors, Havocs, Lord] that I really like, but eat up alot of points. I really need some help with what to take out for what. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett on Quidditch
    I couldn't help but imagine some poor guy looking up to find a Badger hurtling towards him, about to wrap itself around his skull.
    [ 1500pt. Chaos List, C&C! ]
    -=W: 2 -D: 0- L: 3=-

  10. #9
    KITTENS GIVE MORBO GAS! theyak's Avatar
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    So Moose, It sounds to me like you might not be wisely infiltrating if your squads are getting blown to smitherines.
    Your army is split between the assault element which is not getting there fast enough and the guys up front getting shot up.

    One key piece of advice for placement: Always, always, always, anticipate that your oponent will get first turn. But put them in positions where if YOU got first turn you could also make good use of it too.

    For example, your 2x melta squads are excellent for this. put them in cover over 6'' in cover so the enemy will at LEAST have to move out to shoot at them, and put themselves into the firing lane of your havocs, oblits, or raptors. Designate a target for them, whether it is a tank to melt or a squad to assault, have a plan for them first turn, but don't put yourself in an all or nothing situation, because half the time, it will be nothing.

    Don't forward deploy unless you can trap them into something.
    Use concentrated fire on big nasty targets, know your oponents general tactics. certain armies give away what they are going to do by design(its why alpha legion and infiltrating armies are so tricky, you can instantly alter your plans based on oponent) A tyranid army with a big flying tyrant. DON'T FORWARD DEPLOY. THEY WILL come to you, CC is inevitable, so you want to shoot as many turns as possible. Same with orks.


    Your havocs should be place away, closing down firing lanes.
    Your infiltrators should be pressure on them as well as support for your berzerekers(they WILL need help time to time) BUT KEEP THEM SAFE.

    Oblits are excellent in supporting both long range and infiltrating squads with big guns, alter your deployment based on oponent. See tanks? well you're going to be using those lascannons each turn. so put them OUT of LOS but able to shoot after a decent move.

    Raptors have excellent assault range with that infiltrate. USE their movement by placing them in cover (6'' in) and spring out on them.

    Zerkers will play themselves most of the time. adjust your infiltrate strategy to support them, since it looks like you're relying on them for your "punch"

    As you're finding out. a 3+ save is NOT end all, it is nice but it is not reliable.do not put your guys in situations where they will have to take saves as much as possible. I know it isn't completely avoidable, but declaring "the 3+ save will save my marines" is just another way of saying "Hi, how would you like some free victory points?". Its coming down to you are putting your marines in situations that are overwhelming.

    Think: if I were playing their army, how would I NOT want to see my oponent deploy. They have lots of guns? well, then why the heck would you ever put your guys in LOS AND in range? They have lots of super assaulters that will much even 'zerkers? then WHY THE HECK would you infiltrate CLOSER?

    Correct me if I'm incorrect on this so I can alter my advice, but I think this is the most common sets of mistakes used by people on deployment and infiltrate.
    W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
    WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

  11. #10
    Pomogromogranite! Aether-Moose's Avatar
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    Thanks man, that really helps. I'll keep all of that in mind next time I play [possibly tonight]. Thank you again for all your help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett on Quidditch
    I couldn't help but imagine some poor guy looking up to find a Badger hurtling towards him, about to wrap itself around his skull.
    [ 1500pt. Chaos List, C&C! ]
    -=W: 2 -D: 0- L: 3=-

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