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  1. #1
    Senior Member Lord Ramon's Avatar
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    2k Tourney LATD re-write

    The Lost and the Damned: 2,000pts

    This is a re-vamp of my recent posting. I would really appreciate any comments and criticisms.

    HQ

    Harusel, Jarl of Khorne: Black Legion Chaos Lord, Mark of Khorne, Dark Blade, Daemonic Resilience, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Aura, Feel No Pain, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Bionics [162pts]

    Caervinygon, Centaur of Tottenwald: CSM Aspiring Champion: Power Fist, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Visage [71pts] Leads the Mutants

    Qarqan Spawnthing: CSM Aspiring Champion: Power Fist, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Visage [71pts] Leads the Mutants

    ELITE

    Squad of 3 Black Legion Obliterators [210pts]

    TROOPS

    Squad of 8x Traitor Guardsmen, led by an Agitator with Bolter: Frag Grenades, Lasguns, 1x Heavy Stubber (or Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher), 1x Lascannon, Infiltrate [106pts]

    Squad of 8x Traitor Guardsmen, led by an Agitator with Bolter: Frag Grenades, Lasguns, 1x Heavy Stubber (or Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher), 1x Lascannon, Infiltrate [106pts]

    Squad of 8x Traitor Guardsmen, led by an Agitator with Bolter: Frag Grenades, Lasguns, 1x Heavy Stubber (or Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher), 1x Lascannon, Infiltrate [106pts]

    Squad of 15x Mutants: 2x Flamers, Speed [186pts]
    Squad of 15x Mutants: 2x Flamers, Speed [186pts]

    FAST

    3x Squadrons each of 3 Sentinels, all armed with Lascannons [495pts]

    HEAVY

    3x Units each of 5 Chaos Spawn [300pts]

    Lascannons 12
    Obliterators 3
    Heavy Stubbers 3
    Flamers 4

    1,999pts

    Heavy Stubbers, Plasmaguns or Grenade Launchers for the Traitors: any advice?

    Lord Ramon


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  3. #2
    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    wow thats a lot of sentinels. I think you have to much anti tank and make 2 of those sentinel squadrons multi lasers instead.

    Of course I would advise dropping a lot of sentinels and traitors altogether and add more mutants but that would destroy the theme of this army.
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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon
    The Lost and the Damned: 2,000pts

    This is a re-vamp of my recent posting. I would really appreciate any comments and criticisms.

    HQ

    Harusel, Jarl of Khorne: Black Legion Chaos Lord, Mark of Khorne, Dark Blade, Daemonic Resilience, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Aura, Feel No Pain, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Bionics [162pts]

    Caervinygon, Centaur of Tottenwald: CSM Aspiring Champion: Power Fist, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Visage [71pts] Leads the Mutants

    Qarqan Spawnthing: CSM Aspiring Champion: Power Fist, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Visage [71pts] Leads the Mutants
    Why frag grenades on something with a power fist?

    ELITE

    Squad of 3 Black Legion Obliterators [210pts]

    TROOPS

    Squad of 8x Traitor Guardsmen, led by an Agitator with Bolter: Frag Grenades, Lasguns, 1x Heavy Stubber (or Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher), 1x Lascannon, Infiltrate [106pts]

    Squad of 8x Traitor Guardsmen, led by an Agitator with Bolter: Frag Grenades, Lasguns, 1x Heavy Stubber (or Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher), 1x Lascannon, Infiltrate [106pts]

    Squad of 8x Traitor Guardsmen, led by an Agitator with Bolter: Frag Grenades, Lasguns, 1x Heavy Stubber (or Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher), 1x Lascannon, Infiltrate [106pts]

    Squad of 15x Mutants: 2x Flamers, Speed [186pts]
    Squad of 15x Mutants: 2x Flamers, Speed [186pts]

    FAST

    3x Squadrons each of 3 Sentinels, all armed with Lascannons [495pts]

    HEAVY

    3x Units each of 5 Chaos Spawn [300pts]

    Lascannons 12
    Obliterators 3
    Heavy Stubbers 3
    Flamers 4
    I don't like giving the mutants flamers, too short range and you should be fleeting most of the time anyways. But they're cheap so it doesn't especially matter.

    IMO the weakest part of the list is that it's divided into bite sized pieces. Mutants and Lord will arrive a turn or more before the chaos spawn even think about getting to the enemy. Thus, if they have any strong hand to hand units, your mutants and maybe even Lord will eat it.

    The mutants need more bodies, but with speed that gets extremely expensive. At the very least the mutants need a boss with a powerfist in each squad.

    Who do you expect to fight? you've got tons of anti-tank weaponry, but very little anti-troop. I'd drop a unit of sentinals and a unit of spawn in favor of the above changes and the rest of the spawn for some Daemons that can be summoned to reinforce your close combat.
    Everything I have told you, even this, is a lie.

  5. #4
    Senior Member JORMAGI's Avatar
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    My first impression is "Fragile"

    The mutants are not numerous enough to win against dedicated assault squads, and are easy to put below half strenth by shooting. This is exacerbated by the fact that the Spawns are going to have a hard time getting into combat fast enough to support them.

    Your shooting units are easily swept away. The setinals will draw heavy weapon fire, and being open topped & lightly armored with no fast skimmer rules to protect them. I've found that Sentinals are great, but easy to kill. They need something to draw the fire of heavier weapons to survive. . . There is nothing in this force that can do it. The traitor's poor leadership and smallish size means that it is easy to force them to break with minimal fire. This is a normal problem for traitors however, thankfully you didn't put too many points into them, but I would advise cutting points from the squads if you want to make your force leaner. The basics are most important: 5 men & a heavy weapon & summoning Icon if you have daemons (wich you don't so that's not needed in your case.) An special weapon can come in handy gives you more firepower, but makes the squad a more tempting target. it is reccomended for the special to mesh well with the heavy: good parings would be lascannon-plasma gun, heavy bolter-heavy stubber/grenade launcher, missile launcher-plasma gun.

    Lastly I would recomend loosing aura on your AC's it really doesn't benefit them much: It would require a wipe of all the mutants under their charge before it would become usefull, and at that point he'll be pretty much useless anyway so why bother paying points for a slight chance of saving him against 1 wound. I consider it a manditory upgrade for Independant characters because they can be targeted seperately and it backs up multiple wounds, but on AC's it's pointless. Also Daemonic Strength is iffy & frags pointless.

    OK enough doom and gloom, those are the potential weak spots. Your list has a lot of good things going for it too.

    Strenghts: With that many lascannons you're going to make a mess of armored opponents, and TMC lists (big bugs beware!) Also with careful set up and manuvering you have the potential of getting a suprise attack on your opponent, potentially catching them off guard. And woe unto anybody who gets bogged down in all those spawns.
    Votewar MKV 2nd place. . .

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  6. #5
    KITTENS GIVE MORBO GAS! theyak's Avatar
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    Heya there ramon, here are my thoughts and suggestions on your list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon
    The Lost and the Damned: 2,000pts

    This is a re-vamp of my recent posting. I would really appreciate any comments and criticisms.

    HQ

    Harusel, Jarl of Khorne: Black Legion Chaos Lord, Mark of Khorne, Dark Blade, Daemonic Resilience, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Aura, Feel No Pain, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Bionics [162pts]
    I really like that you have named all of your characters, bravo!
    This guy could really use furious charge, so you get the strength 8 on the charge, it really comes in handy for killing other MEQ commanders and going after heavily injured high toughness stuff. I would either add it straight up, or exchange it for daemonic resilience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon
    Caervinygon, Centaur of Tottenwald: CSM Aspiring Champion: Power Fist, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Visage [71pts] Leads the Mutants
    Why have the daemonic strength? he's already a monster with S8, it would only really make a difference against vehicles and wraithlords. I think you can safely drop it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon

    Qarqan Spawnthing: CSM Aspiring Champion: Power Fist, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Visage [71pts] Leads the Mutants
    same as above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon

    ELITE

    Squad of 3 Black Legion Obliterators [210pts]
    just perfect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon

    TROOPS

    Squad of 8x Traitor Guardsmen, led by an Agitator with Bolter: Frag Grenades, Lasguns, 1x Heavy Stubber (or Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher), 1x Lascannon, Infiltrate [106pts]

    Squad of 8x Traitor Guardsmen, led by an Agitator with Bolter: Frag Grenades, Lasguns, 1x Heavy Stubber (or Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher), 1x Lascannon, Infiltrate [106pts]

    Squad of 8x Traitor Guardsmen, led by an Agitator with Bolter: Frag Grenades, Lasguns, 1x Heavy Stubber (or Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher), 1x Lascannon, Infiltrate [106pts]
    These guys are very vulnerable to taking casualties, as t3 guys, the infiltrate will help with putting them in cover straight away, but still, I think they need to be 15strong. Having more squads doesn't help if they run away before they have any effective combat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon

    Squad of 15x Mutants: 2x Flamers, Speed [186pts]
    Squad of 15x Mutants: 2x Flamers, Speed [186pts]

    FAST
    Can't you get a leader with a powerfist with these guys AND then put an AC on them?
    I would suggest that, as they have caused me great strife in the past doing that.

    Remember that speed allows you to fleet of foot, if you're going to be using that your flamers will never see service, AND you want these guys in combat ASAP, so I think you can save some points by dropping the flamers. Aside from that 6'' move models rarely ever get to make use of flamers the range just isn't effective by the time you use them you will either be in charge range, or be charged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon

    3x Squadrons each of 3 Sentinels, all armed with Lascannons [495pts]
    I would cut this down to 2 squads of sentinels, they are nice but very fragile, good for blocking LOS, but since your guys either have speed, or are infiltrating, I just don't see the benefit of maxing out on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon

    HEAVY

    3x Units each of 5 Chaos Spawn [300pts]
    Spawn can be great supporting units for your mutants but they are very slow, they might not ever see combat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon

    Lascannons 12
    Obliterators 3
    Heavy Stubbers 3
    Flamers 4

    1,999pts

    Heavy Stubbers, Plasmaguns or Grenade Launchers for the Traitors: any advice?

    Lord Ramon
    Overall it looks pretty good, I think the traitors should be buffed up for more guys, 8 men are great for MEQs because they are tough and have armor, but you have to consider that any and all wounds will just be casualties for guardsmen.

    Just my thoughts, hope they help.
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  7. #6
    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    228 (x8)

    well maxing out the traitors means he will have to drop a squad of mutants and that could be a problem. Or some of those sentinels could come down of course.
    Check out my Codex: Farmyard Animals here!

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  8. #7
    KITTENS GIVE MORBO GAS! theyak's Avatar
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    385 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordLink
    well maxing out the traitors means he will have to drop a squad of mutants and that could be a problem. Or some of those sentinels could come down of course.
    I had specifically suggested dropping one squad of sentinals among other things. Right now the list really lacks staying power, and sentinals do not add to that.
    W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
    WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

  9. #8
    Senior Member JORMAGI's Avatar
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    I'm of the opinion that maxing out the traitors is a bad idea. . . + traitors is just more that run away when anything happens to them. This does not add staying power. (exceptions of course for when you add a AC, then maxed means more staying power. But then you're paying a lot of points for what they can effectivly accomplish.) I would suggest going the other way: drop the agitator & make the squads min sized. then use the points for more mutants. (Inlcuding bosses with powerfists) But that's just me.

    Of course there are a bunch of other things I would change too, but then it ceases to be Lord Ramon's army and becomes mine. . . so I'll shut up now.
    Votewar MKV 2nd place. . .

    Back from internet limbo, and glad to be here.

  10. #9
    Senior Member Lord Ramon's Avatar
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    Great feedback chaps! I'll have a think over the next few days, and add a modified list to this post.

    I appreciate that fact you're all trying to keep the flavour together, rather than just rebild from the bottom up.

    The main Lascannon group (Sentinels and Traitors) are certainly all fragile, with the Obliterators less so. My initial reason for so many is their average BS and the fragility. Certainly 9 LCs for 495pts is a bargain, and the key for me is that because thet are vehicles, they still need better quality weapons to put them down. My intention is that all the LCs will be a gunline, far back and mutually supporting each others. Finally the reason for all LCs is that if it hits it virutally always kills.

    D.Strength + PF = better vs Dreads, Fexs etc. For the small cost of D.Str I think its worth it. Pity I gave 'em frags (Duh!).

    Against a gunline the Spawn will be virtually useless, which is an issue. But for many mission based games, they'll be a lot better. For enemies coming at me, they'll come into their own, and as a side issue, scare the crap out of inexperienced commanders. From a purely fluff point of view, 15 Spawn will look awesome.

    Thanks again
    Lord Ramon

  11. #10
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ramon
    D.Strength + PF = better vs Dreads, Fexs etc. For the small cost of D.Str I think its worth it.
    I too think it's worth it. You'll find it especially usefull against nids too now
    LO Rules

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