Black Legion Uber Retinue 1500 - Warhammer 40K Fantasy

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  1. #1
    Member Quannum's Avatar
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    Black Legion Uber Retinue 1500

    Having rejigged my list to the point of mental collapse, I started anew and came up with this gem.

    Here goes:

    BLACK LEGION 1500

    HQ

    Chaos Lord – 177 pts.
    MoS/Bolt Pistol/Darkblade/Aura/Strength/Resilience/Speed/Visage/Spiky Bits/Frags
    Infiltrate

    ELITES

    Furon’s Chosen Retinue – 320 pts.
    5 AC’s w/ MoS/Bolt Pistol/Power Weapons/Aura/Speed/Frags
    Infiltrate

    3 Obliterators – 210 pts.
    Body Weapons

    TROOPS

    8 CSM – 172 pts.
    1 AC w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistol/Powerfist
    7 w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistols/CCW
    Infiltrate

    8 CSM – 172 pts.
    1 AC w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistol/Powerfist
    7 w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistols/CCW
    Infiltrate

    HEAVY SUPPORT

    8 Havocs – 224 pts.
    4 w/ MoCU/Bolters
    4 w/ MoCU/Autocannons
    Tank Hunters

    8 Havocs – 224 pts.
    4 w/ MoCU/Bolters
    4 w/ MoCU/Autocannons
    Tank Hunters

    TOTAL – 1499 pts.


    Things I know already:
    1) No Vehicles - don't want to paint anymore......*sobs*
    2) Uber Expensive HQ and retinue.
    3) Body Count is ok considering some configs, but low when compared to others
    4) No Missile Launchers......Got plenty of them in my SM list.
    5) No Daemons......liked the idea of Daemonettes but then also didn't want half my force off the table.

    What I want to know is, is it feasible? How would you play it?
    Cheers!

    Q

    Last edited by Quannum; October 29th, 2006 at 00:01.
    Was this post helpful? Please click the Thumbs Up button to the left if it was. Cheers!

    Quannum, funkin' out in every way. Since 1987.

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  3. #2
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    Quannum, let's have a go at your list then

    HQ

    Chaos Lord – 177 pts.
    MoS/Bolt Pistol/Darkblade/Aura/Strength/Resilience/Speed/Visage/Spiky Bits/Frags
    Infiltrate
    Ok. Not to bad at all. He's floating around the S7 area, which is neither here not there. There's not much that can be done about this, without rejigging your list even more :wacko:
    It is a shame that you can't get furious charge on him and hit retinue.

    ELITES

    Furon’s Chosen Retinue – 320 pts.
    5 AC’s w/ MoS/Bolt Pistol/Power Weapons/Aura/Speed/Frags
    Infiltrate
    They are indeed naughty aren't they? How desperate are you for the first turn charge? If you're not amazingly desperate, i would consider swapping infiltrate on both the retinue and HQ for furious charge. With speed they should be fast enough, and furious charge WILL help further protect your expensive troops on the charge (striking first etc).

    3 Obliterators – 210 pts.
    Body Weapons


    TROOPS

    8 CSM – 172 pts.
    1 AC w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistol/Powerfist
    7 w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistols/CCW
    Infiltrate
    Pretty good. Disturbing lack of assault/support weaponry though. Keep the fist whatever you do. Not even any plasma guns or meltas or flamers for these guys?

    8 CSM – 172 pts.
    1 AC w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistol/Powerfist
    7 w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistols/CCW
    Infiltrate
    As above

    8 Havocs – 224 pts.
    4 w/ MoCU/Bolters
    4 w/ MoCU/Autocannons
    Tank Hunters
    Perfect.

    8 Havocs – 224 pts.
    4 w/ MoCU/Bolters
    4 w/ MoCU/Autocannons
    Tank Hunters
    That's a lot of dakka alright

    It's not a bad list at all. Obviously, you'll need to use the retinue/HQ very carefully.

    One thing that I don't get, is why the Marks of SLaanesh? The initiative thing is great, but if you were to take that away, and consider going undivided, then you could get more bang out of your troops. Assault weaponry, things like that.

    With the sheer amount of infiltrate going on, I'm very tempted to tell you to go undivided and play Alpha legion.

    Nicely composed though :yes:
    LO Rules

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  4. #3
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Good concept. Potentially very fragile, but risks are fun; and this one will certainly make your opponent go, "HUH???" All of the suggestions below are geared towards preserving you list, while making a couple of changes to optimize your point use. Since the retinue is the strength/fluff of your army, I won't try and convince you against it. Plus, it's just plain fun, which in Warhammer actually counts for something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quannum View Post
    Chaos Lord – 177 pts.
    MoS/Bolt Pistol/Darkblade/Aura/Strength/Resilience/Speed/Visage/Spiky Bits/Frags
    Infiltrate
    Your lord is in a retinue, which means you don't need to worry about giving him defensive upgrades. Save points where you can, and remember, your lord has the 5 wounds from the retinue. This means dropping daemonic aura and resilience. These two upgrades aren't doing anything until your lord is the last one standing. It's best to avoid conditional upgrades, especially when the points can be spent elsewhere. Also, drop him down to a lieut. You don't need his extra wound for the same reasons as stated above. Next, drop daemonic strength. Your h.q. and retinue are designed to take down troops, and most troops have a strength 3-4. Therefore, having a strength 7 is just as good as a strength 6. If the 7 strength is there to deal with monstrous creatures, then you're in serious trouble. A hive tyrant, for example, goes off at init 5, and though your lord will have him beat, your retinue will not. Since your lord will not likely kill the tyrant before the tyrant can attack, your retinue will suffer gravely (and at over 60 points per model this will really hurt your army).

    With these suggestions, your h.q. would cost a mere 142 points (a steal!)

    One more thing: Why MoS? Are you fighting lots of armies with an initiative better than five? If not then you don't need this mark (which will save yet another 10 points).


    Quote Originally Posted by Quannum View Post
    Furon’s Chosen Retinue – 320 pts.
    5 AC’s w/ MoS/Bolt Pistol/Power Weapons/Aura/Speed/Frags
    Infiltrate
    Well, they are really amazing in c.c.. My one concern (as you're probably going to guess) is the tremendous point sink. Over a third of your points are devoted to this one squad, which makes the rest of your army significantly weaker. You may be able to kill virtually anything that the retinue touches, but I think that you'll find your other units are consequently unable to deal with other threats. You can't rely on your h.q. and retinue to win against everything in c.c. A single brood of genestealers will easily eat their lunch (and at a third the cost this alone will cost you the game).
    Quote Originally Posted by Quannum View Post
    8 CSM – 172 pts.
    1 AC w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistol/Powerfist
    7 w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistols/CCW
    Infiltrate

    8 CSM – 172 pts.
    1 AC w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistol/Powerfist
    7 w/ MoCU/Bolt Pistols/CCW
    Infiltrate
    Where are your special weapons? You really need melta guns in these squads, which will provide you with more diversity. If you need you can reduce the number of models in these squads to compensate for the extra point costs of the melta guns; or you can take the points I suggested from your h.q. and use them to buy the meltas. It doesn't matter that you have two squads of tank hunting autocannons, it's simply a matter of effeciency. Right now, you're paying 177 points for a power fist with 8 wounds, and that doesn't seem very effecient. By adding melta guns it enables the squads to soften monstrous creatures and anything else (including troops) before you rage into c.c.. Remember, these squads won't even be in melee range until round three, so it's good to have them doing something else in the meantime. Also, as you'll see the comments on your havoc section below, I'm recommending that you substitute heavy bolters in one of them. If you take this suggestion then adding melta guns in these two squads will definitely make more sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quannum View Post
    8 Havocs – 224 pts.
    4 w/ MoCU/Bolters
    4 w/ MoCU/Autocannons
    Tank Hunters

    8 Havocs – 224 pts.
    4 w/ MoCU/Bolters
    4 w/ MoCU/Autocannons
    Tank Hunters
    Nice, but you should consider changing one squad out with heavy bolters (and then dropping tank hunter). While you have good c.c. squads to manage the average troop, nothing you have can deal with genestealers or dark eldar in c.c.. Adding heavy bolters will also help to soften troops before you charge in with your other squads. Also, there are some Tau and Eldar tactics that revolve around a transport and a small squad of elite hunting troops. This tactic is nigh on impossible to deal with in c.c., as they can almost always re-board their transports before being rushed. For these types of scenarios (and there are many more out there), you'll need heavy bolters to do the trick.

  5. #4
    Member Memnoch Eclipse's Avatar
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    Ok, I also toyed with the idea of giving some protection to my Lord. Call them Trojans if you will...but they cost too much in the end!
    I did a similar thing for Alpha Legion on paper, and had a 4-man retinue at a total of about 50pts/model (I used Talons instead of Power Weapons, which not a lot of people like, but I like the versatility of Rending vs Power Weapons *shrug* but then I looked it over, and decided one small squad of Daemonettes does the same for 1/4 the price.)

    You need to assault on turn 1, that's evident. So you have to position them in a way that allows you to do this in the most important spot available. However, if you lose the roll to go first, you'll need a kleenex. Your opponent's entire army is gunning for that one squad, and in 1,500 points, that is a lot. If you make sure you're behind cover in case you don't get the first turn, then you may not be able to assault the desired squad when it is your turn...and that is the same problem as before. Your opponent's first turn will be setting up his squads to welcome your Lord with open arms and 25" of space.

    2nd problem I see is this - you've given them Mark of Slaanesh to lower your opponent's initiative which is good, but it's not enough to keep them safe versus the fast and important squads you may want to be sniping on turn 1. Namely - Tyrants, Eldar Aspects, other Independent Characters, etc. If the squad is already that costly, then adding Furious Charge will be well worth it to make sure only the fastest units in the game can ever hit back. (My advice personally is scrap the Chosen altogether, but if you are not willing to go without them, the Furious Charge will help make sure your opponent's don't pick up their dice.) Also, with the Dark Blade...not having Furious Charge means you should not take D. Strength. It's redundant, but if you DO take Furious Charge, then that's 5 Str8 attacks...against opposing ICs and other multi-wound models, that is very good. Not to mention a first-turn assault on a vehicle where all attacks automatically hit.

    But let's say you DO get the first turn, and get into CC on turn 1. That squad will rip apart anything they come across - save Stealers, Tyrants, and some Eldar. (It's all about initiative baby!) So, that's great...but what about the rest of your army? While this incredible squad is doing their work, your opponent's CC forces will be high-tailing it to make short work of your army, and their shooty units will be posturing in a way that your Lord and Chosen won't be able to assault anyone else that game after turn 1 or 2. (5++ invuln is great, but eventually...it is nullified.)

    The question here is - Can you reliably admit to yourself that this squad can do enough in ONE turn to warrant taking that many points? You may be able to keep them in combat for longer, but it is not guaranteed. They are so good, that there is a good chance they will completely wipe out the squad they initially assault...so then what if there's nowhere to go after that? They're dead...or close to being so. So maybe two turns worth...is that enough? On that same note - take the Lord by himself...does he do enough damage in one-two turns to make his points justified? I think if you look at both examples, the Lord alone is more efficient and less of a fire magnet.

    It's all up to you here, but I chose to scrap the Chosen ret. idea, and I feel I made the right decision based on point-sink/efficiency. For 2,500pts I would take them, not for lower. Look at it this way, for all those points you could also get another Havoc squad and fully kit out your troops choices. In the end, that probably provides more enemy casualties than the Chosen ever would.

    Hope I didn't sound too harsh or condescending - t'was not my intention.
    If you wanna proxy the retinue in a game, I'd say go for it - and then make your decision.

    (My Lord is VERY similar to yours to be honest. And Karmoon's as well IIRC. I believe ours costs 162 points though, mostly due to being Undivided and Alpha Legion. If you like going heavy infantry selection, and want to infiltrate...maybe that would be an idea? I direly apologize for suggesting this as it would mean more tinkering, LOL hope your head doesn't implode. Even if you don't - that Lord all by himself will be your all-star. In 5 turns, mine took out a squad of 10 Hormas, and 2 Tyrants...about 400pts for 160 of mine, it was sweet.)

    -Eclipse
    "Long live the Emperor!"
    - a patient Chaos God

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