Librarium Online Forums banner

Alpha Legion 1,500-2,000 (Revised/Both)

2K views 32 replies 8 participants last post by  Memnoch Eclipse 
#1 ·
Ok, instead of digging through the old thread, I decided to make a completely new one. That other thread got really off-topic (my fault of course).

After some play-testing, brain-storming, and suggestions, I feel I have my 1,500 point army down. It's not perfect, but I don't want it to be. I have some oddities, but I'm chalking some of it up to fluff. It's fairly shooty, with a daring Prince to back it up with a back-hand.

HQ
Daemon Prince Haekaule
Mark of Undivided, Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol and Frags. Infiltrate and Furious Charge.
Daemonic: Aura, Speed, Strength and Resilience. (162)
[Already in the process of writing his fluff...I'm trying to create an alliance with Iron Warriors!]

ELITE
3x Obliterators. (210)

TROOPS

Fire Junkies: 10 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge. CCW/BPs, Frags. 2x Flamethrower. Champion w/ Power Fist, Bolt Pistol and Daemonic Visage. (242)

The False Cures: 9 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Counter-Attack, Bolters. 2x Plasma Gun. Champion w/ Power Fist and Bolt Pistol. (212)

47th Laser Hellions: 5 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Lascannon. (95)

Shield-Breakers: 5 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 2x Meltagun. (115)

HEAVY

Abandoned Desecration: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

Dark Despondency: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

_____________________________
1,500 points even.


I like the fact I've stayed away from Daemons for my army, and plan to keep it that way. But I still have the issue of trying to decide how to go from that to 2,000.

In the debate of - Bikes vs Raptors, I think the Bike's invuln edged out the latter for me.

But in a 2,000pt army I mainly want to address my weak-points. If I am reading/seeing it correctly, I lack horde-control and CC-focused defense.

I own a Defiler, all painted up and everything, and I love it. It is always my strongest shooter whenever I fielded him before, and with the Battle Cannon, I can take out quite a few models. Would that be a good choice for that final spot in the Heavy? A small squad of Bikes for some FA...or even some Termies.

What do you guys think?
(btw, a slightly smaller 1,000pt version of this list just roasted a Horde/Scream 'Nid army. After 5 turns, he was wiped out, and I had 700+ pts left on the field. That confused me a bit cuz I thought I was low on horde-killing...but my Lord managed to kill a squad of Hormas, and 2 Tyrants all on his own)

-Eclipse
 
See less See more
#2 ·
i think the idea of a daemon prince infiltrating a planets heirachy extremely funny (insert image of jabba wearing a buisness suit trying to convince the planetary gonvenor to rebel lol )
 
#5 ·
He's a Prince, but isn't very Daemonic. He's not statured or anything, so he doesn't look like the archetypal Daemon Prince you see in the codex. He just stokes his "inner demon"! :) Also, it's funny you should mention that kind of infiltrating, because I asked my local GW guy about painting a few of my Alpha Legion guys in loyalist colors and he says it's perfectly fine if I paint the bases the same to represent the squad being together at the time.

Taking infiltrating to a new level!

-Eclipse
 
#3 ·
Ok, instead of digging through the old thread, I decided to make a completely new one. That other thread got really off-topic (my fault of course).

After some play-testing, brain-storming, and suggestions, I feel I have my 1,500 point army down. It's not perfect, but I don't want it to be. I have some oddities, but I'm chalking some of it up to fluff. It's fairly shooty, with a daring Prince to back it up with a back-hand.

HQ
Daemon Prince Haekaule
Mark of Undivided, Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol and Frags. Infiltrate and Furious Charge.
Daemonic: Aura, Speed, Strength and Resilience. (162)
[Already in the process of writing his fluff...I'm trying to create an alliance with Iron Warriors!]
Looks good, the str8 combo is already ready to go. :)
ELITE
3x Obliterators. (210)
BOOTIFUL. :)
TROOPS

Fire Junkies: 10 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge. CCW/BPs, Frags. 2x Flamethrower. Champion w/ Power Fist, Bolt Pistol and Daemonic Visage. (242)
Personally, I'd swap them out for meltaguns, but hey. Flamers are good, I just don't think you'll get to use them much since they only move 6'' a turn.
I have always found that 8-man is the sweet spot for infiltrating assaulters, too.
The False Cures: 9 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Counter-Attack, Bolters. 2x Plasma Gun. Champion w/ Power Fist and Bolt Pistol. (212)
Same as above, for the most part,
47th Laser Hellions: 5 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Lascannon. (95)
having only ONE of these squads screams out at me as a weak point in your army.
I would either drop them or have at least 2 of them as an element in your force, but having a singular lascannon shot is just too unreliable for my tastes.
Shield-Breakers: 5 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 2x Meltagun. (115)
your 5-man 2x meltagun squad, swap them for the 2x plasmaguns. Make your large squad able to assault after shooting. If you can, I'd add one more body to the small squad. 6-man CSM squads with 2x plasmaguns are cool little speed bumps that really can be effective, but not a big loss when they fry themselves out.
HEAVY

Abandoned Desecration: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)
OOOOH YEAAAAAAH!
Dark Despondency: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH YEEEAAAEAEAAAAH! *more soulful this time*
_____________________________
1,500 points even.


I like the fact I've stayed away from Daemons for my army, and plan to keep it that way. But I still have the issue of trying to decide how to go from that to 2,000.

In the debate of - Bikes vs Raptors, I think the Bike's invuln edged out the latter for me.

But in a 2,000pt army I mainly want to address my weak-points. If I am reading/seeing it correctly, I lack horde-control and CC-focused defense.

I own a Defiler, all painted up and everything, and I love it. It is always my strongest shooter whenever I fielded him before, and with the Battle Cannon, I can take out quite a few models. Would that be a good choice for that final spot in the Heavy? A small squad of Bikes for some FA...or even some T
Keep in mind, fielding a defiler with these guys means you should probably be infiltrating AWAY from enemy forces supporting the long guns so you don't tempt fate by scattering onto your own troops.

I think bikes can work rather well with alpha legion, I've just never felt themt o be fluffy for my alpha boys. Just don't take them in a squad of 3, minimum 4, 5 is getting reasonable.
What do you guys think?
(btw, a slightly smaller 1,000pt version of this list just roasted a Horde/Scream 'Nid army. After 5 turns, he was wiped out, and I had 700+ pts left on the field. That confused me a bit cuz I thought I was low on horde-killing...but my Lord managed to kill a squad of Hormas, and 2 Tyrants all on his own)

-Eclipse
Overall looks ok. Few suggestions to help you how I feel your list can be improved.
Just my thoughts and suggestions though.
Hope it helps.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Hehe well, if I could switch flamers straight up for meltaguns I would do it. So you mention that they only move 6, but they infiltrate, so they'll be using the flames on turn 2. Then again what I could do is get a couple squads of 5 Bikes and replace some of the bolters for flamers (or all of them if I was feeling evil).

I only put Flamers in that squad because they're basically the main assaulting squad in my army, and plan to assault horde-type mobs/things at or around T4. Many of those things have 5+ saves, and so a flamer is better than a meltagun there, which is only 4 more inch-range than a flamer.

Also, for squad-size of 9-10 vs 8. A squad of 8 loses 2 casualties to fire, I take a test. A squad of 9 needs to take 3 before a test. Now I know I have MoU so they will almost never fail that test, but stranger things have happened. The less tests I have to make in that first turn before assaulting, the safer I feel. We'll see if it makes a difference.

I'm sitting right at 1500 though, so if I changed a couple things, everything would change, lol. Do you think it's better to have Plasma Guns than Meltaguns in a tank-hunting squad? If so, that is easily inter-changeable.

As for the lone Lascannon squad. Well, the tank-hunting squad was originally the same. I changed the group make-up but for the same reason. They both hunt for tanks and armor. That Lascannon gets backed up by the three Oblits on any turn where Lascannons are important, alleviating the feel of only having 1 shot. 2 is better than 1, but 1 is better than none.

I'm unsure about the flamers though, one thing I'm not sure about is killing too many of my opponents before I can assault. If I kill 5 or 6 models, and then find out I'm unable to assault...that would mean the end of that squad, lol. Then again, it could just as easily help the squad by softening up the numbers before assault...as long as I make sure I can assault no matter how many wounds I dish out. I expect that squad to be much more effective in CityFight, but hesitate to take away the weapons that give them their fluffy name.

Also, for the record, the three armies I mostly play are: Tyranids, Eldar and Imperial Guard. I make my armies to be able to handle any opposition, and toss in weapons that put a little fear into opposing squads. My Eldar friend doesn't know it yet, but Autocannons are going to be firing in his dreams...and for 'Nids the flamers can take out 4 or 5 Gaunts each on my first turn if I go second, or second turn if I go first. But let's see...if I take 9 marines in that squad instead of 10 - and take away the Flamers for Meltas...



Ok -
Second version comin up!

HQ - same (I don't think I will ever change this guy. In any game I play, he's my all-star..I love him to pieces.)

ELITES - same (should I take 2 in 1500?)

HEAVY - same (Defiler or 3rd Havoc for 2,000 points??)

TROOPS -
Changes:

8 CSM - MoU, Infiltrate, Furious Charge, CCW/BP + Frags. 2x Meltagun. Champ with P.Fist/BP. (208 )
8 CSM - MoU, Infiltrate, Counter-Attack, Bolters. 2x Plasma Gun. Champ with P.Fist/BP. (192)
7 CSM - MoU, Infiltrate, Tank-Hunting, Bolters. 2x Plasma Gun. (153)
6 CSM - MoU, Infiltrate, Lascannon. (111)


So now, which list is better? I don't really have a preference at this point...If I went this way, then I would think hard about some flame action for 2,000 points. Maybe Plasma Gun Havocs and Flame-toting maniac bikers.

Should be fun.

Thanks for the advice, I think I followed most of it here...as always invaluable.

-Eclipse
 
#6 ·
not only is it alright it looks totally sweet i havn't turned it into a predominent thing but if ya look closely at my army you will see some ultramarine, dark angels and wolfies also black legion and night lords :shifty:

i just got one gripe.... it's alpha legion where are the awsome cultists :cry:
 
#7 ·
Don't worry, I play an all- MEQ alpha legion and it does just fine. :)

But he's right, if you like the idea of having subjigated brain-washed worshipers of chaos then cultists are good.
 
#8 · (Edited)
The cultists are right where they should be - on the planets in the cities deep within society in the policing, government, judicial systems, etc. spreading the slight taint throughout each populace so that when I get there, they hand me the keys and welcome us in.

On a crunch-note - I simply decided to take a non-daemonic army, and would only take cultists if I wanted to summon some Daemons. I'm not saying cultists aren't good, because they're damn good. Just not the style I wanted to go with.

[edit] I should note that for 2,000 points I'm not fully against cultists, yet. I haven't decided what I want my 2,000 Legion to look like yet. I want some Flamer/Melta-Bikes, I'm pretty set on that, I'm thinking maybe some more Havocs - either with more ACs or some Plasma Guns...and if I have 100 points left over, a squad of cultists fits right in!

-Eclipse
 
#9 · (Edited)
Ok - the final draft (for now).
Let me know what you think, and please note that even though I write long rebuttals to criticism, I still am listening and appreciate the advice and critique very much. I can only learn by screwing up.

Alpha Legion 7th Company

HQ
Daemon Prince Haekaule
Mark of Undivided, Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol and Frags. Infiltrate and Furious Charge.
Daemonic: Aura, Speed, Strength and Resilience. (162)*

ELITE
Living Inferno: 3x Obliterators. (210)

Haekaule's Hounds: 6 Chosen Terminators, 2 with upgraded ChainFist and Reaper Autocannon. (272)**

TROOPS

Lava Junkies: 8 CSM - Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge, CCW/BP + Frags. 2x Meltagun. Champ with P.Fist/BP. (208 )

The False Cures: 8 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Counter-Attack, Bolters. 2x Plasma Gun. Champion w/ Power Fist and Bolt Pistol. (192)

7th Company Hellions: 6 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Lascannon. (111)

Shield-Breakers: 7 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 2x Plasma Gun. (153)***

FAST ATTACK

Speed Demons: 5 CSM Bikers, Mark of Undivided, Furious Charge and 2x Flamers. Champion w/ Power Weapon. (228 )**


HEAVY

Abandoned Desecration: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

Dark Despondency: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

-2,000


* - The Lord has 75pts of Daemonic Gifts, and is therefore a Daemon Prince in the eyes of his followers. His representable Daemonic Gifts such as the Dark Blade and Daemonic Speed are modelled effectively, but the Lord himself is the same size as any other Legionnaire. The 7th Company, led by Haekaule, is one of the Legions that is most strongly allied with the Iron Warriors - and due to prolonged campaigns with them, have picked up some of the more technological philosophies as opposed to conventional Daemonic Gifts. To represent this, Haekaule's Power Armor has been infested with a Daemon and provides him with built-in turbo-boost technology that provides him with Daemonic Speed. (Fluff back-story to come later, but is that 'ok'?)

** - Haekaule's Hounds and Speed Demons are removed to field 1,500 points.
*** - Shield-Breakers are removed to field 1,850 points.



How does that look? I doubt I will ever need or want to go past 2,000 points, but if I do I have another HQ, troops and Defiler waiting in the wings.

So tear it apart! :spell:

(Sorry to post so mch on the same topic, lol...I'm in a constant state of improvement. I think I may be done though, for a while at least.)

-Eclipse
 
#12 ·
You asked for a critique, and here it comes. Karmoon did a good job already, but I'm going to give you my full 2 cents. :)
Ok - the final draft (for now).
Let me know what you think, and please note that even though I write long rebuttals to criticism, I still am listening and appreciate the advice and critique very much. I can only learn by screwing up.
No problemo, though I do get frustrated sometimes when people simply refute the adivice given ;) but that's ok. That's what advice is about, take it or leave it. :)
Alpha Legion 7th Company

HQ
Daemon Prince Haekaule
Mark of Undivided, Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol and Frags. Infiltrate and Furious Charge.
Daemonic: Aura, Speed, Strength and Resilience. (162)*
Okeydokey for a 2k list, I would like to see one more toy on him, how about Daemonic Mutation, and spikey bits, this brings him up to 187pts, snuggled right in the sweet spot for 2000pts, just under 10% of the force.

ELITE
Living Inferno: 3x Obliterators. (210)
OOOOH YEEEAAAAAHAHAAh... *in the voice of the lead singer from buckcherry*
Haekaule's Hounds: 6 Chosen Terminators, 2 with upgraded ChainFist and Reaper Autocannon. (272)**
You asked for harsh critisizm, so here goes... crap.
6-man chosen squad that all they do is reaper autocannon and chainfists.
What are they supposed to do? No tank hunters means anything av 14 is out of reach, they *can hit troops and light vehicles but they just don't have the volume of shots to reliably do so.
I would drop them like a bad habbit, especially since there are better thingst to put in the force.

Ok, the harsh partis done, now, my advice, if you decide you want them, stick a teleport homer on a few of your squads to call them down into tight situations, keep ONE chainfist(its a backup) and put a pair of power weapons in the squad, they WILL be taking charges, you want to be able to hit back HARD.
TROOPS

Lava Junkies: 8 CSM - Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge, CCW/BP + Frags. 2x Meltagun. Champ with P.Fist/BP. (208 )

The False Cures: 8 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Counter-Attack, Bolters. 2x Plasma Gun. Champion w/ Power Fist and Bolt Pistol. (192)

7th Company Hellions: 6 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Lascannon. (111)

Shield-Breakers: 7 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 2x Plasma Gun. (153)***
I like that you have 4 troop choices, but honestly I don't think they're kitted out in a functionally condusive way.
Your 8-man (false cures) are built for assault support, hence they are 8-man, have the powerfist and bolt pistol, but you've given them plasma guns and counter attack.
I have a philosophy that its always better to GIVE than to receive(especially in assault)
Yes, your plasmaguns may do a good amount of damage to the enemy before they get there, but they have the potential of killing themselves before the enemy gets there too.
I suggest swapping them out for meltaguns, and furious charge, have TWO squads like the lava junkies, redundancy is king in this game, and you have NONE.

Redundancy is good, multiple squads that can fill in for eachother's roles and fulfill multiple roles so when one squad is lost its not "OMG, my ONLY squad of X is gone.. boo hoo"

Your hellions... um.. either drop them or take two of them if you MUST, and take a plasmagun with them too, since they won't be moving or assaulting, might as well add to mid-close range firepower.

your "shield breakers" the small 2-plasma squads are nice, but giving them tank hunters too.. um.. well, yeah. that's even more points that you will be losing not IF, but when they fry themselves out. Drop them to 6 man, get rid of the tank hunters, they will be your heavy infantry hunters if you decide to keep them. If you really want tank hunting plasma, get a havoc squad like karmoon loves so much and go bar-b-queing.(self and them)
FAST ATTACK

Speed Demons: 5 CSM Bikers, Mark of Undivided, Furious Charge and 2x Flamers. Champion w/ Power Weapon. (228 )**
Good... gooood. 5 bikers is respectable. just remember that since the rest of your force infiltrates they will be the only thing on the board that your oponent will be reacting to(aside to your oblits) hide them well.
HEAVY

Abandoned Desecration: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)
SHAZAM!
Dark Despondency: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)
Fer shizzle, my nizzle!
-2,000





How does that look? I doubt I will ever need or want to go past 2,000 points, but if I do I have another HQ, troops and Defiler waiting in the wings.
for adding to this force, I would take more troops.
If you take the defiler, then remember to infiltrate away and shoot, use your defiler to punish your oponents with indirect fire, and make them come close to BLAST EM!

Above 2000 pts, I would add 3rd squad of havocs, using RLs, personally, to add flavor and dedicated anti meq punch. :) yum.

So tear it apart! :spell:

(Sorry to post so mch on the same topic, lol...I'm in a constant state of improvement. I think I may be done though, for a while at least.)

-Eclipse
There you go, there are my thoughts, hope they help.
 
#10 ·
toomany abilities and waay too much tankhunting tone down both and up the number of csm's in the normal squads as it stands they are gonna get chewed up waay tto fast (draw back of infiltrating is usally your in rapidfire range first turn)
 
#11 ·
Eclipse, it's me Karmoon, come to get west side all over yo list y'know?

HQ
Daemon Prince Haekaule
Mark of Undivided, Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol and Frags. Infiltrate and Furious Charge.
Daemonic: Aura, Speed, Strength and Resilience. (162)*
Exactly the same load out I use. I need not tell you how good this chap is. At the 2000 points level though, i would consider giving him spikeybitz or mutation.

ELITE
Living Inferno: 3x Obliterators. (210)


Haekaule's Hounds: 6 Chosen Terminators, 2 with upgraded ChainFist and Reaper Autocannon. (272)**
If I were ever to field termies,.. this is how i'd do it. However.. isn't 10 autocannons a bit OTT?

TROOPS

Lava Junkies: 8 CSM - Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge, CCW/BP + Frags. 2x Meltagun. Champ with P.Fist/BP. (208 )

The False Cures: 8 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Counter-Attack, Bolters. 2x Plasma Gun. Champion w/ Power Fist and Bolt Pistol. (192)

7th Company Hellions: 6 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Lascannon. (111)

Shield-Breakers: 7 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 2x Plasma Gun. (153)***
The Yak went through these with you, I see no reason to reiterate exactly what he would have said.

FAST ATTACK

Speed Demons: 5 CSM Bikers, Mark of Undivided, Furious Charge and 2x Flamers. Champion w/ Power Weapon. (228 )**
skilled riders? And flamers... is interesting. Otherwise ok. Bikes can be devastating, just keep them save, because every wound is going to hurt.

HEAVY

Abandoned Desecration: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

Dark Despondency: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)
Ecplise keepin' it real from the East side, y'all smell me? :D

-2,000


To represent this, Haekaule's Power Armor has been infested with a Daemon and provides him with built-in turbo-boost technology that provides him with Daemonic Speed. (Fluff back-story to come later, but is that 'ok'?)
He's got to look the part and your opponent needs to be fully aware. Fluff wise, he could be eating steroid laden potatoes to get his speed boost for all anyone cares :)

Ok.. I think it's a great list. BUT
BUT..
It looks like a 1500 list with bits added on.
What I think you have to bear in mind when making a list is the overall cohesion of it. What each unit is bringing to the table, taking into consideration how the enemies armies will change at that point level also.

The bikes definitely add something to the list. But i can't see the termies adding anything particular.

What I would suggest is, keep the terminators, drop one squad of autocannon havocs to plasma guns (still with tankhunters).

Alternatively, I would drop the terminators all together and get some raptors instead. 2 fast attack choices lancing out in tandem will be much more effective than compared with a single fast attack choice getting all the enemy's attention.

FOR THE EMPEROR!
 
#13 ·
i have to ask how serious you are about the theme cuz your non-daemon army has a pretty damn big daemon leading it not to mention 3 deamonic machines of death

if you just don't liike cultist and thats the only reason you won't take daemons (shame on you :( ) then i would take a summoning thing for your lord from the armoury and take some daemonettes or bezerkers
 
#14 ·
i have to ask how serious you are about the theme cuz your non-daemon army has a pretty damn big daemon leading it not to mention 3 deamonic machines of death
A daemon prince is fair enough. He's still a marine.
Obliterators also.. daemonkin, but not daemon. They still have a corporeal existance, hence no instability, no summoning. Remember, when they deepstrike - they TELEPORT in, like from a battle barge, or quiet cafe or something.

if you just don't liike cultist and thats the only reason you won't take daemons (shame on you :( ) then i would take a summoning thing for your lord from the armoury and take some daemonettes or bezerkers
Just bear in mind, that Alpha Legion cannot take any daemons unless cultists are there to bring the icons.

Additionally, no mark apart from MoCU may be used - hence no 'zerkers.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I hope you don't think I simply refute your advice there Yak, I generally have things to say about it - but I have yet to not heed some advice given, hehe.

One thing - you say the Terminators should take a couple power weapons...they come with power weapons standard. I'm not sure what you were talking about there, it sounds like you thought I was going to take Terminators without Power weapons, and that's just insane. :)

Well, I don't really like Terminators much, it's not my style. I like speed and sneaky attacks, but I'm a tad confused. I tossed them in basically copy/pasted from the Terminator thread in the Chaos forums where 6 w/ 2 R.ACs and 2 Chainfists seemed to be the most popular configuration. Obviously the other 4 have power weapons and combi-bolters.

If they don't work well in conjunction with the speed and sneakiness, then that I can understand for sure. They feel out of place, and I was basically only taking them to confuse and fluster my opponent who would have to choose to focus his fire on them or leave them alone.

I have a Defiler. I love my Defiler. I have some beefs with Indirect, but understand that it is very psychologically damaging to the enemy knowing that they can't simply hide behind cover and escape his wrath.
Now, for the reason I took him out - 36" minimum on a 48" board can suck big time. My opponents have been eaten by my Defiler enough times to know how to make sure they move up more effectively. Before I created this Alpha Legion list, the Defiler was ALWAYS the best model/unit on the table in any given battle for pure offense.

What I haven't been thinking about is the fact that simply by infiltrating I keep my opponents pressed back to the wall. I didn't even think about that, and my other beef is that scattering away with an ordnance shot makes you feel like you're gonna have a stroke, but if you infiltrate in a semi-circle, you box your opponent into a smaller area. So I've basically convinced myself of his usefulness to an Alpha Legion army.

The Terminators? Consider them gone, I never really liked them to begin with and secretly am happy I don't have to buy them. The Bikers...well, perhaps I'll toss a list at you that's a bit re-tooled than the last one. I may or may not use Bikers. I'm not really hurting for Fast Attack...if everything infiltrates, they ARE basically fast attack. Let's see here...I thought I was onto something with giving rapid-firing models counter-attack - I guess not, lol.

The question is: Is 8 Autocannons, 2 Lascannons, and 3 Body Weapons enough overall in 2,000 points to deal with all of my opponent's AV? I will have 4 Meltaguns, but they are in assault squads, and will most likely be in CC on turn 2.

Where would the jury be on a second HQ choice? Maybe a Biker Lt. with a meltagun, melta bombs and a power weapon? I'll try it out here.
The only thing I am going to ignore from you guys is about the Lord. No offense intended, but fluff-wise, and for my own sanity I want him to be the exact same for every list I field. I understand he would be better with another toy, but he hasn't let me down once - so I won't fix it until it's broken. It's more for the fluff though, he's the same guy both times...he wouldn't all of a sudden get better later. BUT - if you think I should give him Spiky Bits ALWAYS and make him 172 - I might think about trying that out. I might be able to get away with D. Mutation because he has big horns on his helmet...but it would be stretching it.

Ok, here goes!

[edit] Sorry Plague, I'm pretty set on my choice to not include daemons from the warp and cultists from the cities. Like Karmoon said - they're still marines, and that's the difference for me.


HQ (287)
Daemon Prince Haekaule
Mark of Undivided, Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol and Frags. Infiltrate and Furious Charge.
Daemonic: Aura, Speed, Strength and Resilience. (162)

Lieutenant Vexer
Mark of Undivided, Power Sword, Meltabombs. Tank-hunting Bike with a meltagun. (125)

ELITE (210)
Living Inferno: 3x Obliterators. (210)

TROOPS (864)

Lava Junkies: 8 CSM - Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge, CCW/BP + Frags. 2x Meltagun. Champ with P.Fist/BP. (208 )

The False Cures: 8 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge, CCW/BP + Frags. 2x Meltagun. Champion w/ Power Fist and Bolt Pistol. (208 )

Shield-Breakers Omega: 6 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, 2x Plasma Gun. (116)

Shield-Breakers Delta: 6 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, 2x Plasma Gun. (116)

Shield-Breakers Gamma: 6 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, 2x Plasma Gun. (116)

Shield-Breakers Alpha: 5 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, 2x Plasma Gun. (100)


HEAVY (639)

Abandoned Desecration: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

Dark Despondency: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

Catastrophic Reasoning: Chaos Defiler with Indirect Fire, no other upgrades. (175)

2,000 Even.


I call this Project Redundancy.

What do you think? If the Lt. could destroy one tank the whole game, and then die - he would still come out on top for points for...61 Models is the most I've ever fielded, hehe. Obliterators luckily are under Elites, but I think of them as Heavy. So basically I focused my forces into HQ - TROOP - HEAVY SUPPORT. I feel they're fast enough, and adding one FA squad is just out of "focus".

-Eclipse
 
#16 ·
but they're not, gameplay wise they are treated as semi-marine at best (still efected from anti-deamon equip and rules) but fluffwise they do come in from the warp and are in all respects daemons hence breaking theme

but i may be being a lil fluff anal so moving on your liutenant better be holding a combi-melta there and not a true meltagun cus thats illegal only the biker squad bikes can take the upgrades listed there

i still think the squad sizes are too small it might serve you better to dismantle one of the smaller ones to beef up the others

and lastly to karmoon i thought the ruling was no unit bar cultists could take a summoning icon however a personal icon could still be bought from the armoury for sed lord or liutenant
and also i have looked up and down that page a hundred times and nowhere doesit say alpha legion are limited to the mocu i know the other legions are but alpha arn't

are you getting your info from an errata or faq if so please pm me the address
 
#18 ·
and lastly to karmoon i thought the ruling was no unit bar cultists could take a summoning icon however a personal icon could still be bought from the armoury for sed lord or liutenant
and also i have looked up and down that page a hundred times and nowhere doesit say alpha legion are limited to the mocu i know the other legions are but alpha arn't

are you getting your info from an errata or faq if so please pm me the address
Plague..
Chaos codex, page 40. Last two paragraphs entitles Daemons: and Infiltrators: It's all there baby, and you'll find that, for once, I have all my facts right.

I can see where you're coming from with regards to daemons, but I still have to disagree. The Lord is definitely not a daemon and definitely doesn't come from the warp in this case. Take into account - Abaddon. He has over 50 pts of d.gifts (daemon weapon and rune) but he's still human and won't tiptoe up the path of demon hood or something.

As for oblits.. they spent too much time in the warp, so they look like daemons, but they're not.
It's like spending too much time in the shower.. your fingers look like prunes, but they're not actually prunes. I know from experience.
 
#17 · (Edited)
*edit* Oops, didn't see the second page before replying, duh to me.

New advice:
- Defiler in an alpha legion list only really works well if you're playing a shooty alpha legion and just using infiltrate to get the best firing lines. If you put your defiler down, you know you're opponent is going to be setting up on that side to try to get within indirect range.. and you're going to want to put your assault troops over there, now endangering your own units with the battle cannon scatter.
 
#20 ·
Plague - Yeah I really don't agree that a Daemon Prince comes from The Warp. That to me is completely contradictory, and way too ascendant for a mere Prince. They aspire to be Daemons...they're not yet. They're the champions of Daemons, and eventually - if they're lucky they will become full-fledged Greater Daemons. But as Princes, they are simply on that path, and not there yet. A Daemon Prince can be achieved a number of ways...Perturabo became a Prince by killing 400 Marines in a day in a death-trap maze type-thing. You become the Prince, by doing a Patron God's bidding and seeking his/her gifts. Once you do well enough in their eyes, they bestow that status upon you, am I right? And Obliterators are simply marines whose armor melded to their body in a state of pure daemonic bliss...once again, by being in the trenches right along or in the Warp for long periods of time. Would I meet a lot of people who need an explanation for why I choose to play non-Warp daemons and still take these guys? And I'm not even talking about being fluff-anal...because your fluff can be completely different from mine. In an RP-sense, I have absolutely no issue with you thinking my Legion is hypocritical in that respect...in fact that adds a twist. I shun daemons, but welcome their gifts...sort of. To an outsider Chaos army, it could be portrayed as hypocritical.

Also, re-read the codex entry under Chaos Marine Bike purchased from the armory. You can upgrade the weapon to a meltagun, not a combi-melta. Just FYI. The LT. carries his own CC weapon, and the bike upgrades to either: melta/plasma gun for 10 pts, or flamer for 6.

Moob - If I deployed my Defiler behind cover (as he would need to be - or die on turn 1) then my opponent placed all of his models in a position that best lets them stay within 36" ASAP...I am perfectly ok with that. The trick would be to adapt to the moves my opponent makes, that's why it's good to have solid units to put down even when everything else infiltrates. I put him in my far corner, so my opponent puts all of his units on that side of the board to make sure I only get one or two turns of fire. That seems like they just waled right into a trap to me, doesn't it seem that way to you? If I then Infiltrate my army in a horse-shoe around them - keeping some distance between us, then they can't really go anywhere. I just aim the Cannon in the middle of their army and tally up the points, while my shooty army puts them in a constant state of withering fire. I have a couple assaulting squads, but primarily this is a shooty army. The more my opponents boxes HIMSELF in, the less work my infiltrators have to do to achieve the same goal. And I just sit back and blast away.

Hopefully will be playing this weekend, so I'll let ya guys know how it goes.

-Eclipse
 
#21 · (Edited)
damn it does anyone know if they've re-printed the book within the last 2 or so years cuz i've looked over and re-re-read (that wasn't a typo) over those paragraphs and can see nothing of that type in there

and by the way a lord can have so and so d.gifts and not claim daemon status (he's still walking the path and some act has kept him out of favour etc) but as soon as he claims his rightful position of daemon prince he is a daemon his mortal form is cast aside (or blown up in a shower of blood and gore *thank you dawn of war*) and he arises a fullblood daemon

the obliterator and raptor fluff says that they have been in the warp with their equip so long they are no longer human they are combination of marine and daemon but once again i'm not saying not to take them i was merely pointing it out and remain of the oppinion that it is your army and your free to include/exclude whatever you wish

also if you read the rules of some non-marked legions they say may not include daemons except daemon princes and possesed :w00t: (i know i know i will drop it promise ;) )

dammit can't resist technically the defiler is also a daemon :lol: i'm serious now i'll quit but i think you should re-consider taking the defiler, as nice as they are in an alpha legion army they arn't as effective as they could be i would suggest losing them and including another of those sweet havok squads :yes:
 
#22 ·
the obliterator and raptor fluff says that they have been in the warp with their equip so long they are no longer human they are combination of marine and daemon but once again i'm not saying not to take them i was merely pointing it out and remain of the oppinion that it is your army and your free to include/exclude whatever you wish
I think you and he are differing in your definitions of what "combination" means. He seems to believe they favor the physical marine side, you seem to believe they favor the daemon side. Truth is, you're talking about the warp, it can be all of the above and none of the above simultaneously.

That said, oblits don't count as daemons IIRC, do they?

dammit can't resist technically the defiler is also a daemon
Isn't the defiler a machine that is possessed by a daemon, not actually a daemon itself? (Seems I remember something about Iron Warriors having a planet where they're "constructed.")
 
#23 ·
Page 42 under Night Lords.
"...Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space Marines are further exceptions as they are essentially Night Lords with Daemonic abilities."

Page 41 under Iron Warriors.
"Iron Warrior armies may not take include any Daemons apart from Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space Marines. (And possessed are basically cyborgs)

Ok, in the first example, they do a good job in trying to explain that D. Princes and possessed are only half-daemons. And as ShadowcatX said - I choose to believe the marine half is predominant, and you choose to believe the opposite.

In the second example, they explain the differences in their own daemons as opposed to normal ones. Princes and Possessed Marines are considered Daemons for opponent's purposes. They do not suffer instability, and they do not need to be summoned, because they're still marines. But they are effected by Inquisitorial/Grey Knight anti-daemon abilities. They get the "worst of both worlds" treatment for their gifts.

Now, also in the Iron Warriors section, we'll once again note that they state the only Daemons an IW army can field are Princes and possessed...but Obliterators are the focal point of the army, and they make no mention to even explain why. That's because Daemonkin are not daemons. They are not affected by Inquisitorial/Grey Knight abilities. The same goes for Raptors and Defilers, both of which can be utilized by the IW without stipulation. Oblits and Raptors are tainted by daemons, but are not daemons themselves. Defilers are constructs that are possessed by daemons, but are not daemons themselves.

Also, full-fledged Daemons come from the Warp and when they're done fighting they go back to the Warp. They have no ethereal form, and therefore a Daemon Prince is NOT a full-fledged Daemon. A Daemon-Prince is a marine who is on the PATH to becoming a full-fledged Daemon. If you choose to believe otherwise that's ok, but I choose to believe this is so. I haven't made decisions for my army just plucked out of thin air, and I don't just randomly decide to think one way out of convenience. In the fluff I have decided for my army, I have decided to leave out Warp daemons, and cultists, in favor of a marine-heavy army. My Lord has been recognized and gifted by Lesser Chaos Gods, and due to his points cost - is considered a Daemon in the eyes of his enemies...noone said a Daemon had to be larger or uglier than normal...The scariest ones would come in the form of a regular person. One who could walk around and be over-looked. That's what I've chosen to do.

At this point, I think it's just obvious we've chosen to look at things from different angles, and that's ok. And you're right, I can choose to field what I want in my army and don't NEED a reason for it. But I do have a reason, and I've mentioned it. If you don't think it's a good one, that's fine. But don't assume I haven't put thought into it, just because it differs from how you look at it.

Now...group hug.
*buys Plague a beer* :beer:

-Eclipse
 
#24 ·
it's all good like you said most fluff truths depend on the persons point of veiw (wooh obi-wan mnoment :w00t: ) what about my suggestion to drop the defiler?
 
#25 ·
For once, I agree with Plague.
Defilers are great. Battle cannons are great. But, I don't see them suiting an infiltrating army - not when virtuatlly entirely the rest of the army is infiltrated.

They are, however, unmatched fire magnets :)
 
#26 ·
Well, the fire magnet part is kinda why I think he would come get his points worth.
If I toss him down, and my opponent commits to a specific area of the deployment because of it - I should be able to exploit that position. And if this works well, then I can think about Deep Striking my Oblits who up until now were in that same role of "fire magnet commitment".

As in all things, I'm gonna test it out before I make the final decision. But I'm hoping it works, because I have him and I love him...:) My opponents have all mentioned at least 2-3 times each in the last 3 weeks that they're very very happy I stopped using my Defiler. Even if just for psychological advancement, I think putting him in every now and then is a good thing.

-Eclipse
 
#27 ·
ok I cant be bothered reading all those posts so I'm just going to suggest changing one of thsoe autocannon squads to missile launchers. Also I don't think the meltagun guys need tank hunters. You dominate anti-tank anyway. That squad will be hunting MEQ's.
 
#28 ·
Ah, yeah sorry LL - this thread is pretty scattered. The updated lists are below the original as I got advice from Cal and Karm...the meltagunner squads no longer have tank-hunting, and I might take the advice on the Havocs.

Generally speaking, I don't like to change my armies when I face different opponents, but when it comes to inter-changeable heavy and special weapons I am not so strict. (Who's to say a Havoc squad can't pick up a different weapon?)

For the main army, I will stick to duo-Autocannons...but I own 2 Missile Launcher guys, and 3 Heavy Bolter guys. The Autocannon is the swiss-army knife of guns falling right in the middle of the ML and HB...so if I ever blasphemed enough to mix heavy weaponry in extreme situations, it would be by putting a couple MLs in with the AC Havocs, and then if I wanted a couple HBs for horde-type opponents, they are best suited in troop choices imo. The way I see it - the only 2 weapons I would field in Havoc squads are ACs and MLs...everything else just makes more sense in a troop choice. That's just my opinion though.

On page 2, 2/3 the way down is my updated 2,000 point list of you still wanna give your input on the real one. Hehe sorry.

After I play this weekend, and see what works and what doesn't - then I will revise it, and post the decision in a new thread so people won't get lost in the banter! :)

-Eclipse
 
#29 ·
Good, solid build. My comments may be a little redundant, as I haven't read all of the posts on your thread. I've choosen to comment on your first build, as it's the one I think would do best in an competitive environment. Ok, here goes:

HQ
Daemon Prince Haekaule
Mark of Undivided, Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol and Frags. Infiltrate and Furious Charge.
Daemonic: Aura, Speed, Strength and Resilience. (162)
[Already in the process of writing his fluff...I'm trying to create an alliance with Iron Warriors!]
Good looking. I know you like the instant kill of the 8 strength, so I won't say anthing about this ;) . You 'could' save points by dropping F.C. and d. strength, and the lord would be just as effective against basic troops and termis, but honestly, this is just a personal preference. Like I said, the lord looks good. I use a very similiar one in my Black Legion build.
ELITE
3x Obliterators. (210)
nice.
TROOPS

Fire Junkies: 10 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge. CCW/BPs, Frags. 2x Flamethrower. Champion w/ Power Fist, Bolt Pistol and Daemonic Visage. (242)
I'm going to suggest that you drop this squad down to 8 and then place the 2 that were removed from this squad in your Shield Breakers.

The False Cures: 9 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Counter-Attack, Bolters. 2x Plasma Gun. Champion w/ Power Fist and Bolt Pistol. (212) Looks good. I'd drop the squad down to 8 and put the 1 that was removed in your shield breakers.
Again, I'd have this squad at 8 men, and then ship the 9th over to your shield breakers. This will protect your special weapons from being weeded out as quickly.

47th Laser Hellions: 5 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Lascannon. (95)
Drop infiltrate. The lascannon should do its job at the regular deployement distance. The extra 15 points saved by dropping infiltrate can be used towards purchasing an a.c. and fist for your shield breakesr.


Shield-Breakers: 5 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 2x Meltagun. (115)
With the abovementioned suggestions, this squad would now be at 8 men strong. Now, by dropping infiltrate from the lascannon squad, you know have enough to purchase an a.c.. Also, I'm going to recommend that you drop the tank hunter option on these meltas. They should do well without it, and the points saved would allow you to buy a fist for the a.c.
HEAVY

Abandoned Desecration: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

Dark Despondency: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)
My favored flaver of heavy, just as you have it.
 
#30 ·
The Lord being at the 8 strength charge is not just for IC-hunting actually. One of my main opponents is Tyranids, and so far - my Lord has gone toe-to-toe with 3 Tyrants and a Carnifex and has lost 2 wounds while killing the 4 in short order. He's built to go through any obstacle I need him to, and it would be an understatement to say at this point that he is my best unit on the table. :) I love him to pieces! Only thing I would ever think about changing is to give him Spiky Bits, but I don't think he needs it. (Only thing I keep him away from is the Avatar...especially when it gets buffed.)

Maybe when he starts getting into a slump where he's not scoring double his own points every game, I will look into changing him, but I doubt it! :shifty:

Thanks for all the adviceses, I shall find out how it goes this weekend!

-Eclipse
 
#32 ·
Nope, the Fexes I've gone up against were the shooty-variety, and due to Str restrictions on the guns, my opponent decided not to spend the points to give it Toxin Sacs. Basically, the Fex is at 9str, and the weapons cost X...and are at the max Str they can ever be. Buying toxin sacs at y points, doesn't make the guns better, and only makes them more expensive. So by making him 10 str instead of 9, you basically have to spend...30pts to do it. (Am I allowed to talk about stuff like this?)

Either way, I think he may start doing it now...and then I'll simply kill them with my hidden fists instead. His Tyrants (even CC versions) don't stand a chance though, so far. He's in the process of taking a whole mass of genestealers to deal with my lord though, so I have to be careful.

My other major opponents either play with a lot of tanks+heavy weapons - or some skimmers and aspect warriors...I haven't gotten all my stuff painted yet, and until I do I will only get to play against Nids, Guard, Eldar, Necrons and Wolves. *shrug*

-Eclipse
 
#33 ·
HQ (293)
Daemon Prince Haekaule
Mark of Undivided, Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol and Frags. Infiltrate and Furious Charge.
Daemonic: Aura, Speed, Strength and Resilience. (162)

Lieutenant Vexer
No Mark, Lightning Claws(pair) and Frags. Infiltrate.
Daemonic: Aura, Speed, Strength and Resilience. (131)

ELITE (210)
Living Inferno: 3x Obliterators. (210)

TROOPS (854)

Lava Junkies: 8 CSM - Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge, CCW/BP + Frags. 2x Meltagun. Champ with P.Fist/BP. (208 )

The False Cures: 8 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Furious Charge, CCW/BP + Frags. 2x Meltagun. Champion w/ Power Fist and Bolt Pistol. (208 )

Shield-Breakers Vega: 6 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, 2x Plasma Gun. (116)

Shield-Breakers Delta: 6 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, 2x Plasma Gun. (116)

Smoking Aces: 6 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, with a configuration of either: 1 Lascannon, or; 1 Heavy Bolter + 1 Plasma Gun. (111)

Terminal Versatility: 5 CSM, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, with a configuration of either: 1 Lascannon, or; 1 Heavy Bolter + 1 Plasma Gun. (95)


HEAVY (639)

Abandoned Desecration: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

Dark Despondency: 8 CSM Havocs, Mark of Undivided, Infiltrate, Tank Hunting, 4x Autocannon. (232)

Catastrophic Reasoning: Chaos Defiler with Indirect Fire, no other upgrades. (175)

1,996 points (Infiltration Tactic)

For 1,500 points, choose one of three subtractions:

A) Living Inferno, Catastrophic Reasoning, and Shield-Breakers Delta. (Infiltration Tactic)
B) Abandoned Desecration, Catastrophic Reasoning, and Terminal Versatility. (Infiltration Tactic)
C) Lieutenant Vexer, Catastrophic Reasoning, and The False Cures. As well as ADDING one Chaos Marine to Terminal Versatility. (Penetration Tactic)

For 1,000 points:

Prince Haekaule, 2 Oblits, Dark Despondency, Lava Junkies, Shield-Breakers Delta with an AC + Power Fist, and Shield-Breakers Vega. (Penetration Tactic)

For 750 points:

Lieutenant Vexer with added Spiky Bits, 1 Oblit, Abandoned Desecration, The False Cures, and Terminal Versatility.

For 500 points:

Lieutenant Vexer, 1 Oblit, and both Shield-Breakers with added Champion + Power Fist. Vega has Move Through Cover special rule as well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So uhh, I stream-lined the army a bit. Keeping to the main theme, and keeping it redundant to assist itself. I also added some versatility in the Troops section, and made a Lieutenant I will actually want to field! In games where both the Lord and Lt are in, they will be leading two separate spear-head assaults in two weak-points of the opponent's line. I decided this would improve my effectiveness over having just one guy with Speed.

What do you guys think?
I'm beginning to think I will continually tinker with the list forever and a day, but it seems everytime I DO - I like it a little more. I'm also in the process of learning how to be a more competitive player skill-wise, and I felt these changes bettered the army, and created more of a balance that wasn't there before.

-Eclipse
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top