What would you most like changed?

[Rabbit]

In 3rd edition, we kind of had that option. Back then, the Prince was an upgrade option off the Lord template. There were tons of options. However, instead of giving the Prince a +4 inv, the MoT conferred an additional wound.

bliss-giver, how many points do you think is fair for your desired model? (i.e., prince with both a 4+ inv & T6).

EDIT:

I would like to see the ability to possess truly amazing stats, like T7 and 3+ inv. saves, instead of having either of these we are then stuck with otherwise acceptable stats and one good one.

I imagine an acceptable stat for a MEQ to be "4." In the 40K universe, a "4" stat is already above average. However, a truly competent MEQ who has specialized in a given discipline will have a "5." Berzerkers' Weapon Skill come to mind. Then, there's those soldiers that are just combat masters, such as our Lords, who have a "6" WS. This means that they can pretty much dominate everyone. But the buck doesn't stop just yet. Every once in a while, somebody comes along who exhibits such skills that he can take on multiple champions at once and vanquish them all. Even Lords cannot stand up to him. For this type of hero, a "7" WS is granted.

Our Princes are the last of these model types. A "7" is just incomprehensibly good. Only Abby, Avatars, and a few other legendary models can compete with him. In addition, he also has enhanced stats across the board when compared to other marine HQs, so I really don't see him as having merely "acceptable" stats. Then, to top it all off, he's seriously underpriced.

bliss-giver, I think what you're wanting is more of a god-model. Actually, we had these in 3rd edition with our Greater Daemons. They weren't cheap, and for this reason, nobody took them. Well, some people did. They actually weren't too terrible. But back on topic: Let's say you wish to create a demi-god Prince. Don't you think the cost will likely be prohibitive for fielding him with an competitive notion in mind? The fact that our prince is slightly weaker in defense when compared to his offense is the one saving grace our opponents have. Honestly, I can't see giving our Princes anything else without raising the price to such a lofty number that he's no longer an effective option. Already, he's generally regarded as one of the best HQs in the game.

[bliss-giver]

Yes, but although abbadon has a 4+ save, space marine captains and masters all have this as standard, and can take a storm shield for a 3+ save.
The daemon prince example was probably too far, but with lords, giving him Mark of Khorne for a blood-thirster for example, means that you then only have a 5+ save. To get a 4+ save you must take MoT, but this won't always be your choice, so you will often have a 5+ save instead. Do you not agree that because it can be upgraded it seems to have been toned down to start with and therefore, unless you take MoT you are almost being penalised because if you had made a different decision you could instead have had a better save.
And the same with DPs, because you could have T6, or 4+ save, you can't have them as standard to upgrade further, or still have them if you choose a different mark, and must therefore have only the toughness of a bike or the save of a standard CSM with MoT.

[Rabbit]

Do you not agree that because it can be upgraded it seems to have been toned down to start with and therefore, unless you take MoT you are almost being penalised because if you had made a different decision you could instead have had a better save.

In all earnest, I don't agree. In fact, compared to 3rd edition CSMs, it's exactly the opposite. Our Lords are actually 5 points cheaper once you factor in the default upgrades now given to them as standard in 4th edition (i.e., 5+ inv, fearless, 6WS).

Let's compare the upgradabe options between a Space Marine Captain and a Chaos Lord.

They can both take the following:
-storm bolter (or combi-bolter for the Chaos Lord)
-combi-special weapons
-power weapon
-lightning claw(s) (cheaper for the Captain)
-plasma pistol
-melta bombs
-terminator armor (cheaper for the Lord)
-jump pack (cheaper for the Lord)
-bike (cheaper for the Lord)

Only the Space Marine Captain can take the following:
-artificer armor
-storm shield
-digital weapons
-hellfire rounds
-auxillary grenade launcher
-thunder hammer

Only the Chaos Lord can take the following:
-Mark of Khorne
-Mark of Nurgle
-Mark of Slaanesh
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Daemon weapon (of which there are five options)

Looking at it this way, I'm not sure there's a signifcant advantage to the Captain. Furthermore, the Lord has the ability to increase either his toughness or init, which isn't even available to the Captain. Overall, the Captain has a few better defensive upgrades, whereas the Lord has a few better offensive uprades. Although it's an unfair comparison to examine two models from different codices in order to figure out which one is better.

[bliss-giver]

I see what your saying, and understand that it's not really something that can be implicated, but it still annoys me that because you could have a DP with T6, the basic one can only be T5, so to have the higher toughness you must take MoN, and you also can't have a toughness 7. Also, with lords the inv. save thing is the same, because you could have it, it cann't be standard, so if you don't take it you are inferior. And now, SMs can have 3+ inv saves.
As I said, I know that it couldn't be implemented, but it is still something that annoys me, especially now that SMs have it as standard and it can but put up even more.

[Rabbit]

I hear you. We'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the finer points

Here's something to consider: The cost difference between the Captain and Chaos Lord is ten points. Now, if we were to add the cost of a 4+ inv save to the Lord's stats, then we'd probably find the two HQs are about the same price. This kind of shows how the Lord & Captain are on approximately the same footing when it comes to their base stats.

[Moschaboy]

I'd like to have the fluff changed. Especially that "reasons to collect an CSM army" part. It's horrible. It says for pages (exaggeration) how cool and awesome space marines are. at the end there is a small passage which reads like: "yeah but those are evil because they didn't like the new laws on beer".

They should bring in more legion fluff again. seriously, i'd think if some down-sized loyal chapters can survive milennia of constant war, you should think most of the chaos legions, which are way bigger military organisations than the chapters could survive at least as long.

[bliss-giver]

I hear you. We'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the finer points

Here's something to consider: The cost difference between the Captain and Chaos Lord is ten points. Now, if we were to add the cost of a 4+ inv save to the Lord's stats, then we'd probably find the two HQs are about the same price. This kind of shows how the Lord & Captain are on approximately the same footing when it comes to their base stats.

As this disagreement has gone on far too long, I have to say once more that I agree with you that it can't be changed, but it annoys me that even though you can upgrade it for a similar price you can only do so if you don't take any of the other marks, so it is not always possible to do so, and leave it there. As you say we must agree to disagree, I feel that it is fair, but it has just been something irritating to me for a while.

It seems that legion rules have been brought up several times, with mixed opinions by different people. I feel that it would be nice to have some form of differentiation between legions or armies, maybe upgrades could be bought for your hq that influence units near by, or the army as a whole. Instead, there could be a method like the old SM chapter traits, allowing players either to choose their own for their own armies, and with suggested combinations for certain forces.
Please tell me what you think, and any other ideas for this, or just in general.

[Pyroteknics]

Not had much experience with Chaos but here are my views on it (some probably already mentioned):

• Reduce the cost of Chaos Bikes to be more in-line with loyalist ones.
• Update the rules for Possessed - rolling a 1 after deployment sucks...
• Chaos Terminators, while about 10 points cheaper than loyalist ones, should at least get 'Fearless' or something...
• More of a reason to take Raptors (jump packs are handy, but my Chosen can do better but with a Rhino instead).
• More plastic stuff! Havocs, Raptors and Obliterators come to mind...
• Perhaps allow Obliterators to have Marks? Might make them less fluffy though...
• Make a plastic Chaos Dreadnought! Argh!

Those are my main points really. Perhaps some new Legion/Cult rules (like before) would be nice too. I know Space Marines are GW's main army (for selling, updates etc) but Chaos (and others!) kind of get a bit left alone. So much stuff out for SM's and yet more stuff (Storm Raven, Land Raider 'Achilles' from FW) are coming out.

On another note, FW need to make some Thousand Sons/Emperor's Children upgrade kits for Terminators and Marines, but I had a reply from FW saying:

The reason we made the World Eater and the Deathguard Marine and Terminator conversion kits was for the Siege of Vraks books as these two chaos legions appeared in there. We have no current plans to make the other Emperors Children or Thousand Sons Terminator or marine conversion kits, but we may make some in the future.

One can only hope...

[bliss-giver]

Bikes are to expensive, and without anough bonuses to be viable in a list, they either need reduced points or some more special rules.
Possessed have come up a lot, I personally don't use them much as I always seem to roll a 1, and again they are expensive, and despite some special rules aren't consistent enough to be competitive.
Chaos terminators are 10 points cheaper as they have PW rather than PF, are SM terminators fearless, if so ours should be, and it would be befitting anyway, although points would need to be adjusted.
Again raptors are something outperformed by our standard marines, who are also scoring units. They either need adjustment or point reduction.
Plastic kits, especially the dreadnought has always annoyed me, I don't want to spend nearly £40 on my obliterators (luckily I found some very cheap on e-bay).
I've always liked obliterators as they are, and don't feel they need marks, as you say, fluff would be affected.

Chaos definitely need a bit of a look in, but haven't suffered dreadfully with 5th edition rules, so it is unlikely to happen soon.

Please keep the ideas coming!

[bliss-giver]

As a suggestion for raptors or bikers, an ability to throw grenades or to use them in combat could make them different.
Havocs are also something often overlooked, in their case due to obliterators, at current the only advantage they have is the option for autocannons or heavy bolters, again a special rule or ability could counter this, maybe 'tank-hunters', or any other ideas anyone else has.

Please send in any ideas or opinions, however big or small they are.