How do you feel about our codex?

[Black_rose_00]

@Rabbit If've been playing around with 2 lists, my old and my new both at 1700. I'll also post my space wolfs for you to compare.

My old list
Prince, wings, warptime
Dread with missile launcher and heavy flamer
2 X 8 berzerkers with fist in rhino
10 csm with 2 melta, fist champ, MoK in rhino
10 csm, with 2 melta, fist champ in rhino
2 X defilers with extra ccw and reaper autocannon
1 X predator with sponson lascannons

My new list
Sorcerer with lash
3 X Dread with multimelta, heavy flamer
2 X 5 noise marines with blastmaster with havoc launcher rhino
2 X 4 noise marines with blastmaster, 1 noise champion with doom siren in a rhino with a combi-melta
3 X defilers with extra ccw and reaper autocannon or 3 X 2 obliterators or 3 X predator with sponson lascannons and havoc launcher or a mix and match depends how I feel.

My space wolfs
Rune priest with Living Lightning and murderous hurricane and chooser of the slain
2X 5 wolf scouts with meltagun (+1 Attached wolf guard with powerfist and combi-melta)
4 Wolf guards posted with their units
3 X 5 Grey hunters with flamer in a Las/Plas Razorback
7 Grey hunters with melta in a rhino (+1 Attached wolf guard with powerfist and combi-melta)
6 Grey hunters with melta in a rhino (+1 Attached wolf guard with powerfist and combi-melta) rune priest runs here
2 X 1 Land speeder with multi-melta and heavy flamer
2 X 5 Long Fangs with 4 Missile launchers with las/plas razorback

[jondoe297]

Old hat, but its the lack of variety that winds me up about the codex! You try to make a fluffy list and you cripple your self!
I personally feel we have some of the best choices in the game, DP for HQ is awesome for his cost! PM and KBs are amazing troop choices and then theres the quality Oblits residing with heavy support!
I think its a very powerful dex, but has no flavour and can be at times a little boring to play with, which is such a shame because I love chaos!

[Rabbit]

Black_rose_00, to be honest, your first list seems far more competitive, especially if it were up against your Wolf list.

At the 1700 mark, for sheer competitive value, I'd run the following:

Lash Prince
Lash Prince
Plague Marine Squad (7x w/ 2x meltas, 1 fist, rhino)
Plague Marine Squad (7x w/ 2x meltas, 1 fist, rhino)
Plague Marine Squad (7x w/ 2x meltas, 1 fist, rhino)
Plague Marine Squad (7x w/ 2x meltas, 1 fist, rhino)
Defiler
Defiler

It's hard-hitting and can handle virtually any opponent in close combat. Everything is also capable of dealing with armor at some level.

[CainsGreatestFear]

We don't do Ard Boyz Tournies, we just play for fun, and I am sure there are better players than our group, but we are a long ways from idiots. I play CSM quite a bit, and I do very, very well. I find quite a bit to like in our codex.

I use Lesser Daemons, and they actually work. I use Greater Daemons, and they are fun and stompy. I never, ever use a Lash anything, nor even ever a Daemon Prince, and still win plenty of games. I don't own any Plague Marines, nor a single Obliterator.

All the options mentioned in this thread are indeed great, but there are a lot of ways to play CSM. Uber-grit for free, all the icons (try Khorne Raptors, I love them) give decent variety. Zerkers hit very hard. The Termies have lots of great options -- they don't need 3 up invulns to work. They are cheap! Infiltrating/Outflanking Chosen are scary and flexible. Like any codex, some options are more "cost effective" than others, but math hammer is not a game, nor is it particularly fun -- for me. Some options just give you tactical options that you can exploit, depending on how you play, and that is why they cost a few more points. If you don't take advantage of those options, then you may think the unit is "crap". This is not to say some things shouldn't be cheaper! No flame please. For instance, I agree the bikers are over-costed and the spawn are indeed very hard to love.

There is always codex creep, but folks I think tend to complain more than they adapt. CSM is not a horribly outdated codex in my opinion. Great models, plenty of options, tactical flexibility. I know what to avoid and what to hit with the models I field, and you better roll well, or I will at least stay on the field, and probably at least give you a run for your money.

There may very well only be a few competitive Grand Tournament lists, but you'll find that said about any army. I wouldn't know what to do in a Grand Tournament, and none of our group would want to play me much if I fielded nothing but min/max. Its not just about avoiding "cheese", or about being non-competitive, it is just plain boring. Which in my opinion the CSM are NOT.

If you live for Grand Tournaments, maybe invest in a Blood Angels force, and then switch to the latest, greatest codex dujour 4 months from now. If you play for fun, even competitive fun, then CSM are fine.

I give the codex an 8 out of 10. There are some 9s and 10s in comparison, but giving it a 3 or a 5 is just wrong IMO. 8s can beat 10s sometimes. Maybe 40% of the time, given reasonable dice gods. That is fine for me. I don't have to win 90% of the time to be happy. I win about 60% of the time with my CSM -- mainly due to my opponent trying out a new list that isn't effective, or relative inexperience.