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Chaos Space Marines, where are you?

10K views 111 replies 14 participants last post by  thenewKhan 
#1 ·
My son and I just had a spirited debate about Chaos Space Marines the unit, not the codex. I play CSM not him, but he believes this: every CSM primary detachment should include at least one Chaos Space Marine troop choice. His point comes from the fact that shortly after the new codex hit, CSM's have disappeared from the table in favour of the cheaper Cultists and themed Elites like Plague Marines. This is evident from local play, local tournaments and youtube battle reports. Neither of us think that CSM's are never used, just hardly ever. It seems the plan is to cheap out on Cultists and then front load up on the heavy hitters.

In our debate, my counter point was to compare our codex to the Space Marine codex. What makes Space Marines work well is they have an effective delivery system in Drop Pods. Drop Pods are an effective way to get Marines into superior board position with a high degree of safety for the same price as a Rhino. How many times have you witnessed the melta pop out of a drop pod and bust a big vehicle? But also, I think that CSM are disappearing because the CSM army needs to front load on heavy hitting units to be competitive and CSM's are just a big drain on points.

How do you feel about CSM? Are they disappearing in your area? Do you use them in your lists?
 
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#2 ·
Ah, this old debate. So many army list threads have been derailed by it...

Here's the main thing about Chaos Marines: they're a number two choice for any role in the codex. For everything they can do, there is a unit that does it better. So it largely comes down to this: you either take that better unit, or you take the number two choice because it saves on points to be spent elsewhere. So it doesn't really have to do with a delivery system (drop pod lists aren't that prevalent any more either, for various reasons), so much as many people, especially the competitive ones, only want the absolute best tool for the job.

Now me, I see that while Chaos Marines are the second choice in all roles, they can actually do all roles, and still get them accomplished reasonably well. I therefore prefer to use Chaos Marines in my lists, as it means I can save points to use elsewhere to either buff up some other units or to include ones I couldn't before. I mean, a unit of ten naked Chaos Marines is a hundred points less than a naked unit of ten Plague Marines. That's a lot of points that could go elsewhere, and those regular Marines will still be decent at objective holding. Heck, I could give each of them the Mark of Nurgle to improve them and still have a 70 point difference.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I run CSM in my list (Necron/CSM hybrid), and I'm very happy with them. Of course, I'm one of those people that consider the humble bolter to be grossly undervalued by the community, so I might be an odd duck on that one. I'm also one of those silly people that thinks 3+ saves are a bit more resilient than the internet would have you believe.

I run mine with Close Combat Weapons, in a Rhino, with 2 Plasmaguns. They head straight for an objective and take shots at anything within range. Nothing fancy, but they get the job done. I stopped running them with Veterans of the Long War to avoid list-tailoring against my usual opponent.

Overall, I'm not a fan of cultists, because they get blown off objectives by a stiff wind. And while everybody else is all super-keen on plaguemarines, I feel they're too expensive, and I'd give up bolter shots to make them more survivable.

And while drop pods would be nice, I don't consider them to be much better than rhinos, only different. The flip side of having all your forces come in from reserves is that you're putting half your force in firing range of your opponent (if you're dropping in range to shoot yourself), and only half your drop pods are coming in first turn. Drop pods are great against an opponent that's not used to facing them. But once someone becomes familiar with them, I feel the rhino provides more strategic versatility. I'd love to have the option, but I don't feel like I'm worse off without it.

Let me throw in my usual aside about playing in a "casual" environment, that seems to put a lot of emphasis on troops.
 
#5 ·
I saw how you made a comparison to the Loyalist counterparts, but you gotta remember: they pay one more point for Chapter Tactics and ...ATSKNF. Drop Pods are basically a bonus after that.

The issue with regular CSM's is that they aren't Plague Marines and Cultists. If I just need to stick something on an objective, I can use 50 points and just plop them there, and maybe even 55 just to give them a Heavy Stubber simply to keep them involved in the game. Being so cheap makes me able to make the minimum troop count and above for just 50 points a pop. That's it. I can get four scoring units that I don't plan to be involved in the game for 200 points.
So then we move over to CSM's who are simply too expensive to just simply keep on an objective with an Autocannon and do the same thing. When we want to load them up, we end up with something that Plague Marines could do and better. Plague Marines usually end up as a Troop choice anyway, and are so much tougher and battle able for 11 more points. For comparison, a minimum squad of CSM's I need to use two Plasma Guns and a Rhino is 205 compared to a Plague Marine squad of 185, and the Plague Marines end up being tougher and can even enter melee and come out on top (Plague Knives are a pretty cool dude). To even make the CSM squad up to the same efficiency, I have to spend so many points only to have them suck compared to Loyalists. Of course, you could say that you get more Bolter shots, but those points saved gives me weapons that are better than Bolters, so in the end that really doesn't matter, all while getting the same number of attacks in melee while having poison. As well, since Plague Marines are more expensive, you can buy less models for the more efficient unit.

Even Noise Marines are still slightly above regular CSM. They simply handle shooting Infantry better. You could argue that regular CSM's can at least handle tanks, but why do that when I could, again, just use the Plague Marines? I'd rather have a non-scoring unit that's simply better than a scoring one that lacks the former's abilities. Hell, I could still take Termicide too.

Simply put, Chaos Space Marines suck in their own codex.
 
#6 ·
I like regular marines. They are very commonly called garbage or whatever because plagues are better stats, and cultists are cheaper. Someone even went as far to say they were not much more resilient than cultists and they cost 3x as much. But I don't here other marine army's complaining that marines cost to much.

I don't use any myself, but that's not because I don't see value in them, but mostly because I'm borderline obsessed with noise weapons. Haha and as far as I care for playing a non hell turkey spam csm army, regular marines and plague marines aren't really that different. Blastmasters don't really care a whole lot what it's shooting at, unless it's 13+ armor or 2+ saves. Sure, plaguies get fnp, but that's not much of a reliable save to rely on for the pts you pay.


I see csm as a Swiss Army knife. You can kit them out to do damn near anything. They aren't the best at anything in particular, but they are plenty capable of doing the job if used properly. Plague marines are more of a Bowie knife. They can do a lot, and some things they can do much better than a Swiss knife, but they are bigger, heavier, clunkier and (generally) cost more. Then cultists are those plastic knives you give kids to eat cake with. They can do one, maybe two, jobs; but they are flimsy as hell and you can get a million of them for just a few dollars.
 
#13 ·
Depends. When you try to kit out regular Marines, they end up being so expensive and are able to take less fire than a giant Cultist squad. A Cultist squad would be less afraid of a Vindicator pie plate than Marines, and 3 Cultists are gonna take about the same amount of bolter rounds as a Marine to put down. When you add the fact they have a cheaper base cost, they simply camp objectives better.

You're forgetting that, with Plague Marines, you pay less to get the same amount of special weapons, have T5 anyway on top of FNP, and the extra combat weapon that is poisoned. I'm not sure how you CAN see CSM's as a swiss army knife when Plague Marines were already doing that from the beginning and for a better cost, point and money wise. So your bowie knife analogy kinda fails heavily.

But then we're getting into the basic argument of: if it's not the best in codex, then it must suck.
When you write as many units into a codex as you can like with the CSM, you end up with more dud units. Compare the Necron codex, which has fewer options and less duds, and the CSM one, which has a bunch of options multiple units fulfilling the same niche but only one really doing it well enough.
It's all situational. Is it best to have hard hitters in 100% of situations? No.
I'm not sure how this makes sense. When Plague Marines are gonna be scoring anyway, when would there be a better time to take Chaos Space Marines? They toolbox less well, take less hits, and cost more in the long run...
And there are a few units that most people think suck because that's what the Internet tells them. My personal example is Possessed, they always do well enough to earn a spot in my lists. Polaria can tell you similar things about his Necron Flayed Ones.
Trust me when I say that Possessed are pretty terrible compared to Berzerker Marines. Flayed Ones can at least fulfill a niche, whereas Possessed can't be the superior one for a situation.
1. Berzerkers can be scoring when you use a Juggerlord
2. Berzerkers hit more often and have grenades
3. Berzerkers can carry Plasma Pistols for teh lulz
4. Berzerker Champions are better in challenges, simply put. They can take power weapons and have more attacks anyway.

The only thing going for Possessed is that they have a 5++, which isn't spectacular anyway, and I would honestly feel bad for my opponent if they decided to use them. Even then, I can spend that Elite slot on Terminators, who are only 6 points more expensive and do everything better.
As well, Possessed being scoring in the new Crimson Slaughter supplement isn't good enough to make them usable when I can make Rubric Marines scoring and get better results.
 
#7 ·
Cultists are great, so long as your opponent never targets them. If you're running super, high threat targets (like 3 heldrakes or some such), and you can keep that 200 points of cultists in reserve as long as possible, or tucked in a corner out of Line Of Sight, then it's a great strategy. The current tournament scene does this, by putting a lot of emphasis on minimizing the "troop tax" (eldar bikes, chaos cultists, necron warriors). If you're playing a game where you want your troops to actually contribute anything, a game that isn't focused on minimizing the "troop tax", then cultists are a "poor choice".

Plague marines do come out ahead, mostly in that they are otherwise equal, but also come with poisoned daggers (which bumps them up). But then we're getting into the basic argument of: if it's not the best in codex, then it must suck. And if that's your argument, then it's not much of a discussion. By that premise, the only thing in the codex "worth taking" is going to be a nurgle biker lord, plague marines, heldrakes, and obliterators.

Basically, if it's not the best in codex, can it still be "worth taking"? If it's not the best in codex, does it then "suck"?
 
#8 ·
I agree 100%. Cultists and Plague marines definitely have a place and a tactic, and I won't knock someone for taking them. But CSM have their place also, as you have said.

It's all situational. Is it best to have hard hitters in 100% of situations? No. Best to have dry leaves? No. Best to have something in the middle? No. Are they all perfectly valid choices? Most definitely.

I don't like the idea of "it's not the best, therefor it sucks". Some players make their army with that in mind 100% of the time, and if that's how they wanna go then I won't argue. I think very few units in any codex should simply be avoided.

Csm: possessed are pretty poor, warp talons are pretty poor, and so are mutilators. Are they all capable of doing a job? Sure. But not in any way that any other unit can't for less pts. If people want to take them, will I make fun of them or tell them they are wrong? Hell no! I would rather welcome the sight as refreshing.

DE: mandrakes
Nids: pyrovores
Tau: vespid
IG: conscripts and penal legion
To name a few.

All books have a unit or two that are simply not good for their cost, but by and large, such as CSM, they have a lot of units that aren't the hammer and anvil kinda unit, but still perfectly viable.
 
#10 ·
This is true. But I use possessed as an example not to say you should never take them, only that they are, pt for pt, not the "optimal" unit, and often there are other units that will do the job for less, not possibly even better. I like possessed, they look cool and have fun rules, but they are simply too expensive for what they are. Same with pyrovores for Nids, look cool, sound cool, still a little too pricy.

Also, there is always an exception to the rule. Some units do horribly in the hands of 99% of people, but to amazingly well in the hands of that 1%. You seem to have luck with possessed, so by all means, use them as much as you like. Some do well with flayed ones, so by all means, use them. I do well with berzerkers bolt pistols, most people have bad luck with them right now.

Heck, someone, out there somewhere, is owning with pyrovores. It's inexplainable how it happens, but it does.

My point was mostly that there are units that fit in that 99% don't use them because they seem to do poorly, but csm aren't in that slot.
 
#11 ·
My Word Bearers band runs 10 man squads of Chaos Marines for troops. They've never been game-winners but they always do enough to make their points back without the spectacular (although there was one time where a lone Marine passed all his saves when shot by two Punishers with heavy bolters...). Sure, there are times where they die just as fast as cultists but there always are.

Plus my elites are usually filled with two/three squads of Slaaneshi Possessed. Led by a Dark Apostle. With no Helturkeys. Sometimes it's like my army is designed to annoy tournament players...
 
#12 ·
O, without a doubt they aren't optimal. They cost a lot (especially after I Mark them, usually Khorne or Tzeentch), have no ranged weapons, and the Fear part of their Daemon rule doesn't work against a large portion of opponents. I make no excuses for their many obvious flaws.

But they're so fun! When an opponent sees 20-30 of them rushing at him, and he knows the amount of S5 attacks that will hit (even more from the MoK ones), the entire enemy army turns to try and take them down, so my other units can rush up. And even after being all shot up, they will still hit hard once they get to enemy lines; I've had 2-3 Possessed tear through an entire Tactical Squad before with no losses.

And the best part is, because I don't rely on always taking units like Plague Marines, I have the points to field Possessed. And because Chaos Marines aren't wimps like Cultists, they can still move up the field and positively affect the battle because I don't have to worry about a single bolter volley causing them to all run away. Which is why I like regular Chaos Marines: they get the job done and still let me take the units I enjoy the most.
 
#14 ·
I guess you will be happy when Crimson Slaughter hits and Possessed become troops then. I haven't seen great results with Possessed as you have albeit I only own about 15 of them. How many points do you play when you play Possessed in such numbers and how do you usually play them?
 
#15 ·
Well, this is where the thread likely derails...


Ok, the knife example is valid. Guy per guy, chaos marines are cheaper than plague marines. You CANNOT argue against that unless you have no concept of numbers. You are talking about making marines expensive, which yes they can be if you give them a mark, CCWs and bolters, special weapons, a banner, and a champion with weapons. Here is a solution. DONT. Take the marines, give them the special weapons, and maybe a mark and free CCWs if you wish. Done. Cheap.

You always seem to feel like people are saying plague marines are bad. Not a single person is. I have no idea where you get that attitude from. We are simply saying they are more expensive and have more special rules than is required. Key word, REQUIRED.

Plague marines are a Bowie knife because they aren't always needed to complete a job. You can cut a piece of cardboard with a properly sharpened Swiss Army knife just as easily as you can a Bowie. So why take the bowie when it's more than what you need?

Also, plague marines are STUCK with mark of nurgle. They can't take a different one. Sometimes, a cheap ccw unit is what you need, you can get more attacks from csm with Khorne and free CCWs than you can with an equally priced plague unit. And guess what? Those plague knives aren't always needed to win combat. Fire warriors and Termigants really shouldn't be such an issue that poisoned is needed.

Also, you are saying that plague marines are troops with a nurgle lord. Did it ever occur to you that not every csm player takes a nurgle lord?

Because in my csm army, plague marines aren't scoring. But csm are. My scoring cult unit is noise marines. And csm are miles ahead when it comes to popping 14 armor, and are cheap enough that I don't care if I sacrifice them.
 
#21 ·
Time to show you where you're wrong:
1. "Ok, the knife example is valid. Guy per guy, chaos marines are cheaper than plague marines. You CANNOT argue against that unless you have no concept of numbers. You are talking about making marines expensive, which yes they can be if you give them a mark, CCWs and bolters, special weapons, a banner, and a champion with weapons. Here is a solution. DONT. Take the marines, give them the special weapons, and maybe a mark and free CCWs if you wish. Done. Cheap."
No, not cheap. A minimum squad of Plague Marines using Plasma Guns is 150 points, and the minimum squad of Chaos Space Marines using Plasma Guns is 170. Where did this "cheaper" thing come from on your end? If you plan to just use a 5 man squad of Chaos Space Marines with a Plasma Gun, well, good luck with that actually doing anything when you could have just gotten Cultists for cheaper.
2. "You always seem to feel like people are saying plague marines are bad. Not a single person is. I have no idea where you get that attitude from. We are simply saying they are more expensive and have more special rules than is required. Key word, REQUIRED."
I already showed how they are less expensive, and having more special rules as a complaint is simply stupid, sorry. Anything regular Chaos Space Marines can do, Plague Marines are doing better, and then if I need something cheap to hold an objective I got Cultists.
3. "Plague marines are a Bowie knife because they aren't always needed to complete a job. You can cut a piece of cardboard with a properly sharpened Swiss Army knife just as easily as you can a Bowie. So why take the bowie when it's more than what you need?"
Plague Marines, as I showed by the better efficiency and points value, are a swiss army bowie knife, and Chaos Space Marines are trash.
The reason you take Plague Marines is because you pay for what you get. Compare buying a more expensive pair of boots to a cheaper pair, and you'll notice the cheaper pair sucks because you need to replace them, get them repaired, etc. Looking at this further, Plague Marines are an expensive pair of boots you got for cheaper than the bad boots.
4. "Also, plague marines are STUCK with mark of nurgle. They can't take a different one. Sometimes, a cheap ccw unit is what you need, you can get more attacks from csm with Khorne and free CCWs than you can with an equally priced plague unit. And guess what? Those plague knives aren't always needed to win combat. Fire warriors and Termigants really shouldn't be such an issue that poisoned is needed."
You're complaining they're stuck with the best overall mark? Wanna complain about something else that's stupid?
A cheap close combat unit? MoK, and all free CCW's at minimum is 85 and they won't reach combat. 20 more points gets me Khorne Raptors, and they have mobility that the former lacks (all while being able to take 2 Meltas at minimum, which is awesome). As well, Poison guarantees rerolls to wound on those two targets you named, which is definitely not a bad thing.
5. "Also, you are saying that plague marines are troops with a nurgle lord. Did it ever occur to you that not every csm player takes a nurgle lord?"
I always said that scoring is merely a bonus, and being able to simply take Plague Marines, already the better unit as I shown, means I get to spend more overall on shiny toys. As well, not taking a Nurgle Lord is silly when it's the best mark. Not everyone takes it, true, but it's the best choice.
6. "Because in my csm army, plague marines aren't scoring. But csm are. My scoring cult unit is noise marines. And csm are miles ahead when it comes to popping 14 armor, and are cheap enough that I don't care if I sacrifice them."
Once again, scoring is merely a bonus. Since you used you Troop slots on Noise Marines and not your Elite slots, you can bring Plague Marines to do the job that the CSM's are doing, except that Plague Marines will do it better.
Emphasis mine. Mathhammer says No. 4 cultists are the same as 1 chaos marine against bolter fire. Against anything strength 6 or higher, then 3 cultists are equal to 1 chaos marine, assuming AP4 or higher.

I'll give you the argument where you're right (ie: plaguemarines), but cultists are grossly inferior to chaos marines. Their only redeeming quality is that you can take them as 50 point, 10 man squads, minimizing your "troop tax". And hopefully having them never get shot at.




According to some, there really isn't much point in making more than one of anything, as there can only ever be one "best". One "Best in Slot", one "Best at Function" (ie: melee, shooty, etc). Now, they may not all be equal (wraiths to praetorians), but sometimes it's nice to have options, even if one is marginally better than the other. But if you're going on the "Best is the only option" train of thought, then expanding a codex will always lead to more "duds".

Which, getting back to the topic (though I'm not against tangents), nobody is arguing that Plagues Marines are better than Chaos Marines, but the question is: how much better? Are chaos marines 95% as effective as plague marines? Is it enough to matter that much to most people? And that's usually where you'll see me in these "arguments". Sure, there might be better options, but it's not enough to matter in the game most people play. So, if you want to take "sub-optimal" choices, you can easily overcome the difference on player skill, if not other aspects of your list. Moreso if your opponent is also on the same page.

To Possessed: I will say that "Fleet" means a lot to a guy like me, and that's something they provide that nobody else does.
Guess I did the Mathhammer wrong. Whoops, not sure what I did...

When it comes to options, I can look at the Necron codex and think to myself that Praetorians, Shards, etc simply don't exist and you realize how few duds there are. In the Elite slot, Flayed Ones (doing the Genestealer infiltrate thing but don't die to a breeze), Lychguard (Assault Terminator equivalent give or take), Deathmarks (being the best Elite), Triarch Stalkers (army enhancer and can kill things in one shot) and the Tomb Stalker (monstrous creature edition but doesn't suck like the C'Tan) all have a specific niche they fulfill. Wraiths end up taking over the one that Praetorians fulfilled (elite jump assault unit), and then I could go over the individual Fast Attack units if you wish. When I have more options, it simply means more models for me to use. Otherwise, I can easily find something else to do the job.
So when I look at the Chaos Space Marine codex, we just end up with so many duds. Berzerkers end up doing the same job as Possessed but better, and simply put Fleet isn't worth the price, lack of grenades, and MoK, when I need to buy a Land Raider for both anyway if I expect them to actually reach combat...

When Plague Marines are doing the same things for less, points and money wise, I'd be insane and unreasonable to use regular Chaos Space Marines. It's as simple as that. Player Skill won't matter on that when you're building an army inefficiently, otherwise an all-Genestealer army has a decent chance of winning, and both you and I know that's not true.
 
#19 ·
The thing with possessed, and also to some extend regular csm, is that they are too "top heavy". Most obvious in possessed, where you pay for a lot of special rules that a lot of the models won't get to use. All models that get killed by bolter fire for example, won't be using their inv save. And all that die before getting to combat is a horrible waste of points, since most of their upgrades kick in during combat.

For possessed to be "worth" their points, they should get a "volume discount" for buying a lot of special rules, like for example a lot of grey knight units get. If you look at their units you'll see that they usually pay less than their special rules combined would indicate, just because they probably won't get to use all of them anyway. I mean even warp talons get this, although maybe not enough.

This also becomes an issue for regular csm if you don't kit them really cheap. For plague marines this isn't as much of an issue, since most of their upgrades are defensive, and thus it's much easier to get use of the points spent.
 
#20 ·
Chaos Marines best point is that they come relatively cheap and you can tailor them to fit any role. Now there is one role you probably don't want to use them for and thats objective camping simply because if you want cheap Cultists are cheaper and if you want durable Plague Marines are your men. However, if you need an infantryman for anything else than simply staying put on an objective CSM can be tailored to fit. For example, if I were to go Nurgle heavy I would probably put Plague Marines into back-field objective camper role (with that wonderfull durability and plasmanguns, behind a cover ofc) but use simple and cheaper MoN CSM for attacking opponent objectives.
 
#23 ·
You saw the OP. It was a discussion of why regular Chaos Space Marines are disappearing from lists, and I provided the reasons why that is. You said "nuh-uh" and I countered.
So you either gotta come up with better reasons to use them than "they're worse than Plague Marines but usable" or just admit I'm right.
 
#26 ·
Here's the key, Slayer. You think you're 'right' and everyone else is wrong. The entire debate, however, is not empirical, it's subjective, because it's based on opinions. You, however, believe your OPINION to be FACT, and attempt to shout everyone else down for disagreeing. You're the kind of person who believes that if you force someone else to leave a debate because they're sick of your attitude, you've won.

Deliver your ideas and opinions, that's fine. But do it in a way that doesn't annoy other people by acting like they're idiots because they view the game differently and not as the purely statistical model that you've invented in your head. And just to clarify, by 'view the game differently' I don't mean competitive vs casual, I mean having a different approach to achieving your goals.
 
#29 ·
Moderators General Warning

No-one has yet stepped over the line, but the discussion is heating up so I'll just say this: Keep it calm and keep it civilized. No shouting down. Okay? :)
 
#33 ·
Haha right?

Or it will be like this,

"Ok men, seriously. How did you not destroy that bunker? You hit, I saw it. The chances of not rolling a pen were minimal, and you had what I equated in my head to an ap1 weapon!"

"Sir, your not making any sense! That was a reinforced bunker and we shot it with a 12 gauge slug!"

"We are proxieing! That was a normal bunker and you used a las cannon!"
 
#35 ·
So yeah.....I'm usually running about 220ish points for a squad of 10 with champ, 2 special weapons with an icon of vengeance and fifty of mutation with whatever else the champ has. Like I said before their solid without being spectacular. I don't take them to win games, they are there to make up numbers, draw fire and support the possessed who are my real game winners
 
#36 ·
Just a couple of things for consideration, 10 CSMs with 2 plasmas may be ever so slightly more expensive than 5 plague marines with 2 plasmas, but you get another 5 bolters, another 5 wounds, I4, and you don't lose those plasmas as easily, as it's easier to keep them from the 'front' from different angles. Plague marines may be better overall, but I just thought it worth pointing out that with those squads you're paying for more than just 2 plasma guns.

I take CSMs quite a lot, partly because I don't have many plague marines and possess no cultists, I just don't like them and never have. Their fluff, models and stats just don't appeal to me. However I do have lots of normal CSM models, many slightly converted/kitbashed, so I like to field these often. This isn't a reason based on the in game merits of the units, it's based on the fact that I like the chance to play with these models.

Also in my area nurgle lords actually aren't that common, I see more juggerlords, nurgle DPs and 3++ tzeentch lords. After that nurgle and slaanesh lords are about equal - slaanesh with murder sword is very popular as virtually guarantees killing a selected non-EW character against most armies. More importantly for slaanesh lords however is the access to noise marine troops, dual blastmasters in units is very popular. I don't think my area is particularly representative of all areas or tournaments, but I thought it worth pointing out that nurgle lords are far from an autotake from what I see.
 
#38 ·
Bolters are pretty meh in the first place when you pay that much on that body anyway, so I'm not really seeing that as a defense. Likewise, 5 more wounds < T5 + FNP when you get a cheaper base cost to outfit the unit.

Also, I think it's almost silly to say that the stats of Plague Marines don't APPEAL to you. Maybe if they were like 30 points I'd understand, but it's 24 points for that. WHY is that unappealing?

Juggerlords are good but really don't do anything else that I can't get a Nurgle Lord on a Bike to do, all in the while unlocking the best troop option. Daemon Princes are just good. I then don't see the appeal of a 3++ Tzeentch Lord. It's not really more durable than a Nurgle Biker Lord (4++ isn't as good as 3++, but T6 means immunity to Instant Death from most weapons and would still take less wounds from anything S7 and under, which is a number people obsess over) and less murderous than a Juggerlord.
Here's the key, Slayer. You think you're 'right' and everyone else is wrong. The entire debate, however, is not empirical, it's subjective, because it's based on opinions. You, however, believe your OPINION to be FACT, and attempt to shout everyone else down for disagreeing. You're the kind of person who believes that if you force someone else to leave a debate because they're sick of your attitude, you've won.


Deliver your ideas and opinions, that's fine. But do it in a way that doesn't annoy other people by acting like they're idiots because they view the game differently and not as the purely statistical model that you've invented in your head. And just to clarify, by 'view the game differently' I don't mean competitive vs casual, I mean having a different approach to achieving your goals.
My opinion is the correct one though. Plague Marines outperform the regular ones for a cheaper price. That's not subjective at all based on Mathhammer 40k and a decent noggin for tactics. You're paying more for the worse unit, and if your idea of subjective is to defend that choice, simply don't. I can bring Triarch Praetorians to a game and, just because they made their points back that one time, doesn't make them any more excusable of a choice. They suck, and I understand that. That's not subjective, and I understand that when using them. The issue is that you don't.


As for a different approach for winning games, if that means paying more for the worse unit to do the job then by all means go ahead. That's the price you pay for trying as hard as you can to make a bad codex seem okay I guess.
 
#39 ·
And so history repeats itself...

Anywho, I really see this issue as a fundamental flaw in the CSM codex. We pay one less point than a Loyalist marine and as mentioned before, Loyalists pay one point for Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF. That's been said before, but to expand further, what is the real true point value for a vanilla CSM? Is it that loyalist marines are just way under cost? Really, Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF is worth more than one point. If they were worth 3 points, does that mean that a CSM should be 11 points base? I doubt it, but it seems to fit. Would adding Veterans of the Long War free help? A little, but it isn't equal either. How could this be fixed?
 
#51 ·
Some advice is better than others, but who judges what is bad advice, you? In what context do you judge advice to be wrong? If 6 people believe it to be bad advice and 4 people agree it's good advice, is bad or not? That is what a well mannered debate is about. I say Paetorians are good because of X. You say Paetorians are bad because of Y. That's the way it works. It's not bad advice because I said so and that's that.
 
#59 ·
I'd like to think you would be good at giving at advice. Typically advice should be taken by people with a higher post count and solid battle reports in tournaments since these are typically the people that know how to get results, and us people know what works and what doesn't. We can all say "don't follow Internetz advice", but unfortunately it's typically correct. I shouldn't have to tell you guys that have on this forum longer than I about the crap internal balance in the Chaos Space Marine book, but I'm having do so. If you enjoy a unit, great. Don't justify their use when it really isn't fantastic though.
No use arguing with someone who thinks their opinions equal facts and doesn't understand what constitutes a balanced comparison. Slayer-Fan can continue using only one list and live in his own little world, populated by people who think that spamming Plagues and Heldrakes is the only way to consistently win. Everyone else (considering how everyone except him on this thread, and in most threads where he tries to tell people what to do, disagree with him) can continue to use Chaos Marines and experience a large amount of success with them.

Seriously, I am so glad I don't know him in person, can you imagine how intolerable he'd be around election time? Unless of course he's Kim Jong Un, then that would explain his attitude entirely.
As I said, this is the only forum I've seen people justify the use of regular Chaos Space Marines. I'm not in the minority, you are, along with your obsession with Possessed which are crap as well.
Just as well, you have yet to actually counter my last points about Plague Marines being the best choice all the time and responded with a simple "I'm done" and then you forcing me to take 10 of each model instead of taking into account point values first when getting the stuff I want out of the unit. And THEN you have the guts to say I'm not using balanced comparisons? You do realize how stupid you sound after saying that stuff right?
Ah, but if only Loyalists could ally with Necrons, then that might be good advice. But they cannot. And so I have to work with the tools I'm given. Maybe in some future life, Chaos will have legion rules and one of those legion rules will boost the ever-so-under-appreciated bolter.

You're just talking past me at this point, re-hashing your old points without actually responding to my previous posts. Considering you've made yourself something of a zebra, I'm not the sort to hold it against you. If you actually want to talk to me, let me know. I'm game any time.




As the "giver of bad advice", I'd like to touch on this. One of the threads that I thought was so awesome, and made me want to join the LO community, was an old necron tactica by shas_on_u. In his own manner, he has his "my one true way" view on how a good list should be built, and what models make a good list. He includes a post on what not to take, which is perfect for helping a beginning player in order not to lose games. Because, as we all know, the first step to winning games, is not to lose games. Which sounds like one of those "well duh" notions, but you'd be surprised on how deep that sentiment (playing not to lose) actually is.

Anyways, I highly recommend a read through that thread if you haven't already. Everything good about the thread is exemplified in the post about Warriors, particularly point 3 in how to play the list depending on mission. In that, he not only gives a short summary of the unit, but also strategy in how to play it. In his post about Destroyers, and we all knew destroyers were the best unit in the codex hands down, he doesn't say "Take destroyers because they're the best use of the points", he goes into the strengths of the model. He goes into how to use the model. He talks about target priority specifically for destroyers, and how it interacts with the rest of your list. And this is a poster that never had to go into another thread and tell someone they were making poor choices by picking sub-par units. He knew what the sub-par units were, and knew that good players can make subpar units work.

And that's the crux of the matter for me. I don't take advice from bad players. If you can only win games by taking only the best options, then you are not a good player. If you need to make your list so strong that it can still win you games after having 6 beers, then it is the list that is carrying you. If you need to have your list as a crutch, then you are not a good player. You (general you, not you specifically Slayer-Fan123, as I have no idea how good a general you actually are) are not doing anything, the list is doing the work. We all know there are internal unbalances within the codex. I don't need you to tell me that. I can figure that out what is the best option per point on my own. Any excel spreadsheet can tell me that.

Nor do I need you to tell me that Plague Marines are the best troop choice. They've been the best troop choice for 2 editions now. Breaking news! Nothing's changed! Even more breaking news! Nobody is arguing that point-for-point, plague marines are a better buy than chaos space marines. You're tilting at windmills on that one.

What I am interested in hearing, and what is important to me, is how people make the non-optimal units work. To me, that is what shows someone to be a good strategist. Then I try to take their strategy and replicate it. Because that is also what makes someone good at the game: he understands it so well that he can explain it to a dumb monkey like me, and I can follow the line of thinking and duplicate the results. Which is what makes that tactica I linked above so brilliant. The fundamentals of it are still something that I follow, and still something that I win games with.

tl;dr - Someone telling me that plagues are the best troop for the points is just parroting something I already know. Someone telling me how to win games with Praetorians is teaching me something new. I hold more respect for the latter. If I just want to be top dog in my tiny little meta, that's a pretty easy goal to achieve.
Space Marines CAN ally with Necrons, so I'm not sure where you got that from. And if you want to talk further into this, go ahead and PM me.

The information in that link is no longer valid since that's for the 3rd Edition book, but it's not exactly difficult to find the uses of a unit and whether or not they're actually good at it. Destroyers you would simply maximize and then prioritize targets accordingly. I don't understand what's difficult about that.

For this third paragraph I will pull a quote from something I saw on Warseer that someone sigged:
"Everyone remember how Napoleon armed his men with pitchforks, to show everyone what an awesome general he was? No? Me neither."
The same concept applies here.

In reality, non-optimal units are always going to be non-optimal, and, when you can just simply accept that, you can use them for fun. No amount of tactical knowledge over 100's of games is going to change that. That's why there should be focus on how to beat the top dogs with this woefully underpowered codex, and not silly threads asking the question I answered earlier and then people trying to deny it even the slightest.
 
#52 ·
No use arguing with someone who thinks their opinions equal facts and doesn't understand what constitutes a balanced comparison. Slayer-Fan can continue using only one list and live in his own little world, populated by people who think that spamming Plagues and Heldrakes is the only way to consistently win. Everyone else (considering how everyone except him on this thread, and in most threads where he tries to tell people what to do, disagree with him) can continue to use Chaos Marines and experience a large amount of success with them.

Seriously, I am so glad I don't know him in person, can you imagine how intolerable he'd be around election time? Unless of course he's Kim Jong Un, then that would explain his attitude entirely.
 
#54 ·
So I'll put CSM to the acid test for myself and step out of the Cultist only troop choices. Just from the people who like CSM; what is the going unit look like in an A-typical 1500 point list? For me it's the fun factor and not the ultra competitive uber list that I look for.
 
#55 ·
I would have to start by asking: what does the rest of your list look like? Is there a theme or a concept behind it?

Afterall, I can say "I run cultists", but that means entirely different things depending on if I'm running a Dark Apostle or not.
 
#56 ·
I don't build a list that way personally. I decide on the mandatory units first (HQ & Troops) then with the points left build a suitable list. I'm wondering in 1500 points what people sometimes kit their CSM out like. It's not an exact science, but it will do.
 
#58 · (Edited)
Forgive me for quoting myself. It's just dinner time so I'm short on time, and not much of my opinion has changed on it.

So, to talk of the benefits: the main thing where chaos marines shine is that they are a cheap 3+ save. I know everybody thinks a 3+ save is worthless anymore (and it is when you're facing 3 heldrakes or 3 riptides), but against anything else it still takes a bit of work to whittle down a squad of power armoured, tough 4 bodies. In fact, beyond Battle Sisters (who are toughness 3), you won't find a cheaper 3+ save around. That's the main thing you want to keep in mind, because the more options you start taking, the more you start losing that "advantage" that chaos marines have. So add options sparingly.

I've found that marines stop being "worth it" once they get above 16 or 17 points per model. That's been about my "sweet spot". This generally means that it will just be a squad with Mark of Nurgle and no other upgrades, and I think that's worked out the best, if you're aiming for most competitive. Or, the layout that works best for me (oddly, since there is only one marine player in my meta), added close combat weapon plus Veteran of the Long War. The old Space Wolf player in me likes the Mark of Khorne plus added close combat weapon, but I haven't been using that because it doesn't thematically go well with my Sorcerer HQ. Were I to run a different HQ, I'd probably go with that, though no Icon because I'm more taking it for the 3 attacks when receiving the charge, not for doing the charging.

In general, I like my chaos marines to be versatile. I want them to be able to take shots with their bolters (which doesn't get enough credit), but also be able to handle themselves in assault. I keep my Aspiring Champions cheap, as they're just throw-away challengers to take my opponent's HQ out of the fight, so that I can hopefully win with the marines themselves. If I do give him any wargear, it's a meltabomb or combi-weapon.

*snip for non-CSM unit irrelevance*

So, in general, the best advice I can give if you're running basic CSM bodies as your force: keep everything cheap and cheerful. Try to pack as many bodies into your list as possible, because that's the main advantage that generic marines provide. Keep the gimmicks to the cult units, rely on weight of dice to win you your games. Just be aware of your weaknesses: protect yourself in rhinos, because there is a lot that bypasses cover saves and 3+ saves, and only pick fights you know you can win, because you don't have the loyalists' ATSKNF to fall back on.
If you want straight advice: take a squad of 10 csm in a rhino. Pick a special weapon for the squad (I like plasma or flamers) and take two of them. If you really want, add one upgrade that meshes with your playstyle and meta. If you face a lot of gunlines, take mark of nurgle. If you're super aggressive, take close combat weapons. Do not exceed 16 points per model. Don't feel you need to take upgrades at all.

For playing: aim for an objective and go. Pop smoke first turn. Later turns shoot so that the rest of your force can keep up. Run the rhino 'till she pukes. Let your opponent "unseat" you from your transport. Approach enemy on objective. Shoot at enemy on objective. Assault enemy off objective. Go to ground until game ends. If rhino is still functional, park it between your remaining squad and the rest of your opponent's army. Let your faith be your armour. The Emperor protects.

No, wait! Ignore that last part. :D
 
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