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Today i've played a game of warhammer against an opponent and he totally massacred my (actually i didn't win any game yet with the new demons). Now i want you to see my list an give my some advice.
BT - Obsidain Armour, Axe of Khorne, Immortal Fury
Oke i've played 5 games with the new demons and he was in all games.... And died all games, mostly because he couldn't kill his opponent (Cold One champion, Herald of Tzeenth). Then he would lose due CR and then i almost always trow a 9+ and then he really dies.
Herald of Khorne - Juggernaut, BSB, Sundering, Armour of Khorne
He's really nice, the -2 to cast is wonderfull and almost no anti-magic is needed (this is my opinion unitl now)
10 Bloodletter - Banner, Icon of War
To hide my BSB and to charge the enemy, the +D6 is really nice (they die almost everytime because i can't make does damned WS)
30 Horrors - Banner, Icon of Sorcery
This was a new expiriment and it worked nice, this unit has got all the nice spells and everybody is afraid of those spells (except HE). Was the only unit remaining on the battlefield last time i played.
Third Core unit, extra DD and nice spell
There nice, but after the battle i though, Damn forgot to field my fleshhounds.
2 fiends of slaanesh
Actually the only slaanesh unit i really like and IMO the best rare choice.
3 Bloodcrushers - Banner, Icon of I may always march
Oke, now i know for sure, Bloodcrusher suck......
Overall battles i player until now, i will tell what went very good, what went very wrong and the things i don't really know how to use them (the ugly).
- Herald with -2 cast banner
- Heralds of khorne on Jugg
- GD always dies (BT is so nice)
- After each game I'm always thinking, hmmmm why bother trowing those WS
- No numbers, all blocks/units are very expensive
- 30 Horrors?
- Furries good?
- Drop the Sundering for the stubborn banner?
For now this is all, but there is much more to discuss. But as said, this is it for now. Now i need your advice/thoughs/opinions.
well, I don't yet play DoC, but I'll give you some general advice (at least until Undead Bonzi can get here and show you the path of daemon enlightenment ).
First of all with your BT, it may look big and scary (which it is) but like most monsters, he still needs to have support. Commit him to battles where some of your other units are already involved. Particularly if you can get a flank charge off with him or said unit. This then negates ranks and will most likely negate outnumbering. Then even if you roll horribly you wont do too badly with CR.
As for your list, if your gonna run small units of letters I would try to may them units of 12, so you can get more attacks into your unit frontage. I would also possibly drop either your fiends or Blood Crushers for more core. You already have the ultramobile BT to lay the smack down on just about anything.
As for the rest, it seems to me that the majority of your problems lie with luck, not necessarily your individual units. Your BT should most definitly be able to destroy unit champions and any hero level character in the game. That you couldn't doesnt represent the BT's abilities, it just shows that your dice aren't properly blessed by the dice gods.
"I am the architect of fate!"
I havent played the new Daemon list a lot though i have played it enough to give me an idea about whats good and whats not.
I dont like GDs. I think they are owerpriced compared to the amount of heralds u can field instead. I very much like the heralds... they are all very cool in their own way. I completely agree with you that Fiends and flesh hounds are fantastic. The problem with blood chrushers for me has been that my opponent has been focusing a lot on them and killed them pretty fast.
The greatest succes i had was with my plaguebearers. These guys are extremely tough if they are fielded with a herald.... they can take the most insane beating with no or very few casualties. Also if u give slime trail to the herald they can handle flank and rear attacks.
I have also had much succes with the stubborn banner. The main problem i have had was combat resolution... being outnumbered and taking flank attacks all the time is tough. But large units of stubborn plaguebearers with regenerate and horrors with 4+ ward save can be a hard nut to crack.
Also i must say that I have been very happy about my furies so far. I fielded them in units of 5 and 6. I used them for screening my bloodchrushers from shooting. Its an expensive screen, but it worked out fine. They are also fine for supporting charging units by hitting the flanks of enemy units or just the usual war machine hunting. Furies are great as an all-round pain in the but unit.
The Tzeentch chariot seemed pretty good as well. I fielded it with a herald that was "master of sorcery" with the lore of fire and had him use flaming sword of Rhuin... that combo made him as potent a as Khorne herald. But with 20" movement and a 4+ ward save.
Dunno if any of this helped you... i hope it did
I am here, but enlightenment is not free, it costs 49.95 per month. I accept all major credit cards or travelers checks. I also come with a 30 day return policy. If you are not fully pleased with worshiping in the church of Undead Bonzi your original god will likely take you back.
Demandred did hit on one of the big issues already. What you've posted sounds more like bad luck than tactical or troop choice weakness. Keeping in mind that I don't know your full story I'll give you a rundown of what pops to my mind when reading your post and looking at your list.
1. BT you have is a solid build but he isn't a one Daemon wrecking ball. Ideal targets for BT's are high point value, low static rez units or lone Heroes/Lords. A BT should be able to charge and kill a group of 5-6 Heavy Calvary/Kight type units on his own. I have zero clue how a BT could not kill a Herald of Tzeentch if I'm reading your post correctly. If your BT isn't beating on those high value small units he needs to be working in close support of the rest of your army, getting flank charges on blocks that your hitting in the front with Bloodletters. A solo BT is a dead BT, chant that mantra as you play
2. Sundering is nice. Just remember that its only -2 to cast to a specific lore so if you go against an opponent with multiple lores its gonna lose some effect.
3. You shouldn't be suprised to have your unit of 10 Bloodletters die, especially if they are making usupported charges against the front of ranked enemy units. Ward saves for us are a bonus, not something to be relied on. Letters rely on their high WS 5 and getting the charge to protect them from unfavorable combat. A 10 man unit should always be used in concert with another unit so one can get the flank charge. Run units like this plain, no points invested in magic banners or champions or music.
4. Flesh Hounds are Khorns best choice. I always try to run at least 2 units (more on this later)
5. Crushers can be good, but they MUST be screened by furies. They are flimsy fire magnets that cost a ton of points. Hit something in the flank with them though at its gonna hurt.
6. Fiends rock. Its a tie between Seekers and Fiends for the title of best slaanesh unit.
The tactic to remember with a Khorn or Slaanesh oriented army is that your army lives or dies on the flank. We can't afford the units with enough static res to do a solo head on charge. As good as our troops are it still isn't practical unless your playing nurgle. To this end you must always keep in mind the flanks. Every unit should have a buddy nearby. Your Letters should have a pack of Hounds in close attendance. Letters hit the front and the hounds take the side/rear. This type of fighting is what Daemons were made for. Look how great/fast our special and rare choices are. Fiends, Hounds and Seekers practiacally beg to be set up on the flank to negate rank bonus and to swing combat in our favor. Whenever you deploy, whenever you move it should always be with the thought of dominating the flanks. To that end on with my list suggestions.
1. FURIES!! I wrote a tactica on these beauties, its buried somewhere near the bottom of this forum. Read up on what I said there. Your list could strongly bennefit from the presence of 1 or 2 five to six strong units of furies.
2. Drop the Crushers and run more Hounds and Fiends. 2 units of 2 Fiends each is what I'm toying with right now. Another unit of Hounds would do you a world of good.
3. That third minimum squad or Horrors isn't strictly needed for you defense magically. Try replacing them with another small unit of Bloodletters. As Demandred said 12 would be a more effective number than ten. Try 2 units of 12 Letters bare bones or maybe with just a plain standard and musician. REMEMBER TO SUPPORT THESES GUYS WITH FLANKERS!!
5. Have a priest/rabbi/shaman bless your dice. It sounds as if you have angered the dice gods and they are punishing you.
The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
As said hers's my new list:
Bloodthrister - Obsidain Armour, Immortal Fury, Firestorm Blade
yes, i really like him now. He didn't even die last game and the +1S saved they day. Now i must only find a solution againt those HE
Herald of Tzeentch - Master of Sorcery, Winged Horror, BSB, -2 LD banner
He is nice to, but died because of the lack of scenery where i could hide him
12 Bloodletters - Banner
Did really well against a hydra in the front and a daemon prince (old chaos rules) in the flank. Hold it for 3 rounds.
what to say about this unit
30 horrors - banner, icon of sorc
uhmm, this unit is nice on paper but i think i will drop it (or bring it back to 10) and then add another herald of tzeentch with Master of Sorc (to get all spells of Tzeentch or another lore) and fly to ..... fly ofcourse :party2:
5 flesh hounds
They encountered some fierce chosen chaos warriors of khorne with halberd (old rules) and they died after four rounds. Then the warriors met the bloodthirster 0:
They sucked and will be dropped
Next time i will try out 1x 3 and 1x1
My thoughts about the list:
- Add another herald of tzeentch instead of the big unit horrors
- drop the screamers for seekers maybe???
- try to find space to add furries
That's all. Comment please
And again i changed the list a little bit.
Bloodthirster - Dark Insanity, Immortal Fury, Amrour of Khorne
Oke, this is how i like him most. 14 attacks on 1 HE bolt trower crew member is overkill
Herald of Tzeentch - Winged Horror, Master of Sorcery, BSB, Icon of Despair
This is nice, the banner now has a range of 32"
Herald of Tzeentch - Winged Horror, Master of Sorcery
Nothing to say here
12 Bloodletter - Banner, icon of endless war
12 Bloodletter - Banner, icon of endless war
Nice units, maybe i drop the endless war to free points
10 horrors - banner, Icon of Sorcery
They did what they should do. Die.
This unit still rocks
Nice and fast unit
Flamers are nice, but i don't know if they are good in this list. maybe i will swap them for another 2 fiends
well flamers need to be 4or 5 to be really effective. drop the icon of sorcery it's a 100VP that's easaly lost
What are your thoughs about the icon on my BSB? Furthermore, what do you think about slitting the unit of 2 Fiends in 2 units of 1 Fiend?
Last edited by Wicked_Fool; May 28th, 2008 at 09:57.
well the icon of despair is really nice in combaniation with slannesh spell lore since those are moustly based on LD tests. the banner of sundering would maybe be better in this case but it's a nice think non the less. And about dropping the flamers it's the only shooting you have. They are great against soft targets it also negeates all the DD the opponent might have so it's a nice ranged ability. But heck I would just start playtesting if you have the chance too. it's the best way to get a feel for the army. about the fiends I don't know what to think of them to be honoust there are probably really good But I would hide them until they can charge since the aren't that strong at taking shots.
Just try to get a game inn using some proxies and lett us know what you find out.