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View Poll Results: Which list do you prefer?

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  • List 1

    1 33.33%
  • List 2

    0 0%
  • It's the same...the rats will eat them all.

    2 66.67%
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  1. #1
    Member Hollow_Man's Avatar
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    Struggle against Skaven: 2 alternative lists

    Hi all!
    I'm up against a skaven opponent, who'll be fielding something like this.
    It's always the same list he uses: guess why...he always wins :'(

    Heroes:
    greyseer, 3 engineers fully tooled for heavy magic

    Troops:
    4 X 30 clanrats with full command and ratling guns
    2 X 40 slaves with full command
    2 X 35 giant rat packs
    1 warpcannon
    3 X 5 jezzails

    Total: around 2500 pts
    13 power dice + storm daemon + 2 warpscrolls + 8 warpstone tokens
    8 dispel dice + 4 dispel scrolls

    ---------------------

    And i've got two ideas of lists, based on the same core.


    FIRST LIST

    Herald of nurgle: 125
    general, slime trail
    -with
    17 plaguebearers: 222
    standard, musician

    Herald of slaanesh: 215
    lvl1, steed of slaanesh, siren song, enrapturing gaze
    -with
    7 seekers

    Herald of slaanesh: 215
    lvl1, steed of slaanesh, siren song, enrapturing gaze
    -with
    7 seekers

    6 flesh hounds

    6 flesh hounds

    10 horrors

    10 horrors

    4 fiends of slaanesh

    Herald of khorne: 290
    BsB, great icon of despair, daemonic robes, armour of khorne, juggernaut
    -with
    3 bloodcrushers: 230
    champion

    -----
    total: 2513 pts
    6pd / 6dd
    -----

    Since he's going to have a lot of shooting and magic missiles, my plan is to get into close combat as soon as possible.
    Having 6 highly mobile units, i could manage to engage into front+flank combat 2 of his units with seekers and hounds, plus 2 other units with BCs and FoS.
    Plaguebearers are there as a second line, to be employed where necessary.
    Regarding magic, i only can HOPE that my defense will be enough to avoid being torn to pieces; and if maybe a herald of slaanesh could roll a double 6 for stupidity... XD

    ---

    SECOND LIST

    Herald of slaanesh: 165
    steed of slaanesh, siren song, enrapturing gaze
    -with
    7 seekers

    Herald of slaanesh: 165
    steed of slaanesh, siren song, enrapturing gaze
    -with
    7 seekers

    6 flesh hounds

    6 flesh hounds

    7 furies

    7 furies

    10 horrors

    10 horrors

    10 horrors

    4 fiends of slaanesh

    Herald of khorne: 165
    general, armour of khorne, juggernaut
    -with
    3 bloodcrushers: 230
    champion

    Herald of tzeentch: 285
    BsB, great icon of despair, daemonic robes, spell breaker, disc

    -----
    total: 2514 pts
    7pd / 6dd + 1 scroll
    -----

    The alternative list would be more daring, but possibly more efficient: with this, i lose the nurgle block, which could be too slow to ever be useful, and i redistribute magic dice, to be safer in case i lose the seekers+heralds.
    Also, the flying BsB would be very useful, together with some screening furies.
    My main concern is about the survival potential of this BsB herald, that imo reaches absolute zero.

    Would you help me to get rid of this cheesy rats?

    For the gods!

    It's better, it's shiny, it's warped...it's Chaos.

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  3. #2
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    *twitch*

    You're facing Skaven... Which have leadership bugger all... And you don't have a Greater Daemon?

    I think you need a more balanced list either way.

    Personally, I think having 5-7 units that fast is a bit of overkill, as you only have two flanks, and your main units (and those little ones) will get eaten because you just don't have enough bodies. You need big fat blocks of scary. 20 anythings will do nasty, nasty things to Skaven, and after a turn or two will hopefully outnumber them. 20 Daemonettes with Herald get 15 attacks at WS5, Khorne gets 8 S5+ with Hatred... These things hurt. At the moment, you just don't have enough to cancel his simple numbers.

    Although, I would call him out on having a SSAD.

    How precisely is he beating you? That might yield more efficient feedback.

  4. #3
    Member Hollow_Man's Avatar
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    Well his play style only involves sitting in his deployment zone, and firing all he can.

    This is why a GD is a waste of points: he would focus all his magic and shooting upon it and kill it in one round.
    Statistics are pretty clear, when you have to face 1 warpcannon, 15 jezzails, and at least 2 ratling guns, plus 2/3 ligthning bolts there is no way to survive, even for a GD.

    And this is why i need all my units to be into cc in the 2nd round, to have a better chance to survive magic and shooting with as many units as i can (and still, skaven CAN shoot into cc...).

    On the other hand, since he won't move at all and deploys at around 26' from mi side, any daemon on foot becomes useless, because PBs will take 4 entire rounds to charge, BLs and nettes will take 3.
    That means they will take 2/3 ratling volleys, on the average of 7 hits per volley, thus losing around 5 models per round.
    This would lead to charging blocks of 30rats with less than 10 models per unit, which is a complete suicide

    It's better, it's shiny, it's warped...it's Chaos.

  5. #4
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    neither list is going to get you anywhere except back to the warp . I think you should teach him a lesson and go full tzeentch - maybe that will stop him from brining cheese armies.
    Start off with kairos, blue scribes, have 2 L2s w/MOS in horror squads, 12 flamers, 3 squads of 5 furies to run for warp cannon and jezzails. and rest maybe in screamers or boost the horror squads. This way what you do is sit Kairos all the way back with Heavens and comet/lightning his shooters and then move your heralds in horror units forward to get rid of other threats with magic. the furies should get rid of the warp cannon in turn 2 unless he decides to shoot them to death which is good deal since he will be wasting at least 2 squads of jezzails + some magic (remember all you need is 1 fury to chase the cannon off the board).

    Alternatively you could go Nurgle heralds with palguebearers so that you can enjoy the 5+/4+ and crush him in the front. The key really is to get into combat - he has no stormvermin, plaguemonks or censors and his clan rats will die pretty fast. his rat packs might be a threat but you could magic them to a decent number. I don't think slaanesh or khorne will do very well in this list at all - they are too weak with T3 and when they finally get there they will just die from the static CR.

  6. #5
    Shrubs for the Blood God Undead Bonzi's Avatar
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    I usually don't recomend tailoring lists to fight opponents, but in the face of such a sad SAD list I'll give you a few pointers what will make this guy never want to play you ever again.

    Herald of Tzeentch
    -MoS, Winged Horror (Lore of Death)

    Herald of Tzeentch
    -MoS, Winged Horror (Lore of Death)

    Herald of Tzeentch
    -MoS, Winged Horror, BSB: Icon of Great Despair (Lore of Death)

    Herald of Tzeentch
    -Power Vortex

    10 Horrors

    10 Horrors

    10 Horrors

    6 Flamers

    6 Flamers

    Then load up on as man 5 Fury units as you can (5 or 6). Deploy your Heralds and Furies behind cover...let the Horrors and Flamers get shot up. Spend 2 or 3 turns casting the Death spell that makes your fear causing units cause terror on your Furies. When you have 3 or four Terror causing units of Furies, fly them out of cover and over the board. Space each unit out in front of his entire line for maximum effect. Right behind the Furies, fly your Heralds of Tzeentch, land the BSB Herald near the units you really want to run. Since he deploys with his back against the wall of his deployment zone you will run most of his army off the board in one round...without ever getting into combat. He will never play such a one dimensional army...or you...ever again.
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
    -Undead Bonzi

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undead Bonzi View Post
    I usually don't recomend tailoring lists to fight opponents, but in the face of such a sad SAD list I'll give you a few pointers what will make this guy never want to play you ever again.

    Herald of Tzeentch
    -MoS, Winged Horror (Lore of Death)

    Herald of Tzeentch
    -MoS, Winged Horror (Lore of Death)

    Herald of Tzeentch
    -MoS, Winged Horror, BSB: Icon of Great Despair (Lore of Death)

    Herald of Tzeentch
    -Power Vortex

    10 Horrors

    10 Horrors

    10 Horrors

    6 Flamers

    6 Flamers

    Then load up on as man 5 Fury units as you can (5 or 6). Deploy your Heralds and Furies behind cover...let the Horrors and Flamers get shot up. Spend 2 or 3 turns casting the Death spell that makes your fear causing units cause terror on your Furies. When you have 3 or four Terror causing units of Furies, fly them out of cover and over the board. Space each unit out in front of his entire line for maximum effect. Right behind the Furies, fly your Heralds of Tzeentch, land the BSB Herald near the units you really want to run. Since he deploys with his back against the wall of his deployment zone you will run most of his army off the board in one round...without ever getting into combat. He will never play such a one dimensional army...or you...ever again.

    not sure if it will work though - he has 8 DD and even with banner despair you could scare away the jezzails but you still have to deal with the other chunks of his army - with Grey seer LD and 3+ ranks they should be saving on 8s... if they save all your guys will be in the open for a round of magic....

  8. #7
    Shrubs for the Blood God Undead Bonzi's Avatar
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    Lore of Death includes a spell that drops LD by 3. Stack that with the Icon of Great Despair and what you get is rats running off the board.

    SAD armies are sad for a reason, they are near impossible to beat. It takes one trick pony's or long shot terror bombs to do it. hopefully the SAD will be fixed when the Skaven get redone.
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
    -Undead Bonzi

  9. #8
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    I don't think that skaven list is unbeatable, its quite unreliable (nothing more satisfying than watching skaven weapons blow up or shoot each other haha) but I do hate skaven armies like that, every one I've ever seen at a tournament is pretty much identical to that (or along the same lines).

    Terror is definately gonna be an important weapon against them, the big blocks have ok ld due to rank bonus but the jezzails, warp lightning cannon etc have terrible ld (5 or something if I remember rightly) so chances are you put anything terror causing by them and they'll go running straight off the board. Thats an awesome idea casting that lore of death spell on furies/heralds, I may have to rag that idea actually...

    Also screamers can be pretty handy, both for the terror spell from lore of death and also because they can glide over ratling guns and take them out with their slashing attack (I think they can do that...they can be targetted now in the new rules despite being within 5" of a unit? Or is it different for skaven weapon teams?), even just 3 S5 attacks from 3 screamers (minimum unit) should easily kill ratling guns which are T3 and only have 1 wound...

  10. #9
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    he has enough DD to counter the -LD spell. Plus i think you need LOS to use it so once you see him he will blast you to pieces...

  11. #10
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    But does he have enough DD to counter 3 -LD spells? + any magic missles you decide to lob at his key points...like any jezzails or WL cannon that didn't flee on the first terror. Sure the magic needs LoS, but if the Herald is behind the furies and in proper positioning you can controll who he see and who he doesn't. I've done this against WE...you only need to see and be seen by one model to cast the spell, just use positioning to controll who sees who.

    Your missing the point though. This isn't some fool proof 100% tactic I'm proposing. It is a mean little one trick pony designed to give the Skaven player a dose of his own medicine. Even if it worked only one time in five it would still be worth doing.
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
    -Undead Bonzi

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