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The new army book is out!!! let the griping and GW bashing begin...jk.
On the whole I think the new daemons codex is fantastic. Good synergy between Heros, Lords and all the army choices makes for fantastic possibilities in both mono and undivided lists. What I want to talk about in this thread is the elephant that's standing in the corner of the room...Daemon Princes as Lord choices.
My problem with Daemon Princes as Lords is this...they don't do Lordly things. Now it can't be denied that they have a solid CC statline and all kinds of options...for a price. my biggest hangup on the DP is LD 8. 8???, for half the price any of our heralds can provide the exact same LD. This gets to be a real problem when you consider that for the price of a DP you can have two heralds that will have the same LD, grant Locus abilities, and offer a greater combined combat potential than a single DP could.
Or for around 150-200 points more you could roll out a GD. GD have an unreal CC potential. Keepers and Thirsters could smackdown blocks of elites single-handedly. A Great Unclean One could almost be called unkillable, and a Changer of Ways could give Telics a run for his money as one of the games most powerful magic casters. Plus they grant LD 9, which is important for our modified instability test.
The only bennie that the DP holds over a GD is that they are cheaper (relatively, i don't know about efficiency) and don't count as large targets so they can hide in a unit and add CC punch.
So all that aside...will you be fielding a DP as a Lord, or Two Heralds in his place, or a GD. Your reasons? Is there a way to use/kit a DP that makes him effective?
The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
At a first glance, the DP just doesn't seem to be on the level with the other characters.
It's got a severe restriction on magic levels and extra points for daemonic gifts;
another bad point is the fact that dedicating him to a particular god doesn't grant him the god-specific ability proper of the correspondent herald.
So i cannot see -at the moment- a reason for fielding it.
Also because i cannot find in the book any passage implying the alignment restrictions typical of the old HoC.
It seems to me that you can field daemons from all the gods, independently of the general's god.
Am i correct?
It's better, it's shiny, it's warped...it's Chaos.
Personally I will be fielding a bloodthirster more often. You can make him identicle to his Hordes counterpart (without frenzy) and he is over 100 points cheaper! I know his I is down by 1 and W down by 2 but who cares!
I am currently running a BT with S10 and re-rolls to hit with the 3+ armour save to boot. He hits anything on a 3+ with a re-roll (because I am famous for rolling poor to hit when it counts) and wounds on 2+.
As long as you dont go mad with points all the GD can be effective without being OTT
http://www.travian.co.uk/?uc=uk4_8583 - A good browser war game
Yes, daemon princes seem very underwhelming. I'd either take a herald as my general, or spend a few extra points for a greater daemon.
I'm going to make a quick arguement in favor of the Daemon Prince, solely so I can claim to be the first person to play "devil's advocate" in this section of the board.
First of all, I don't think the issue of points cost should be thrown aside so quickly, given the fact that this army is rather pricey to begin with....some of us will be looking for ways to squeeze the most out of our points.
Also, when comparing it as an option to a greater daemon, one has to keep in mind that your comparing it with 4 lord choices with specific roles. If you compare stats on an average basis, you'll find that the only places a daemon prince will fall short are S,T,W and Ld statwise. Technically it also falls behind in BS as well, but when you consider that the greater daemons who have this stat figured into thier point cost already must spend more points on top of thier already hefty sum to even use that stat, it fails to be an issue in my eyes.
As far as magic is concerned, I'm going to say that the DP is actually more cost effective than the other choices. While it certainly is not capable of the same quantity of magic as the other, there are some things to keep in mind. First, the difference between upgrading the DP between lvl1 and 2 is also equal to that of a GUO and a KOS. It also has access to multiple lores, including ones not accesible to other GD, which is something only the LOC can accomplish, and he costs more to do it.
As far a daemonic gifts are concerned, the DP sacrafices the amount it can take for diversity in the matter. DP's can access more options than any other character in the army list, solely by dedicating itself to the respective god it chooses. Any specific issue you have with the DP that your not particulerly fond of can be addressed with daemonic gifts, and still be cheaper than a GD. He can also accomplish things that no other daemon can, like having always strike first, an armor save, a aura save, and regeneration to go through before
Granted there is one thing, besides the magic lvl issue, that the DP cannot counter, and that is it's lack of terror.
Considering the basic issues of written stats have been addressed, I think it's important to consider the tactical aspect of the DP that few have seemed to notice, that being it's apparant lack of one. Every GD has a distinct purpose as a general. We all know what the plan for the BT is, we ll know that LOC is more likely to sit back casting spells, and we all know it's going to take a great deal of effort to take out that GUO. If you place a daemon prince down during deployment, your opponent has to start questioning. Even if you haven't built it to perform a specific task that he can't be sure is coming, it's still more versatile, if weaker, than the GD alternatives. He only learns what magic your using, before you deploy, and I assuming what mark afterward
OK, I think a I made a decent case to make a DP a considerable lord choice. I haven't made up my mind about it for certain yet though, as it is clear GW some issues for a FAQ in the army book. Under the daemon rules it claims the DP is a monster and follows those rules when concerning a joining units......but it fails to call the DP a large target in both entries later in the book. I personally think a DP would get a good deal of attention it the first section where to prove to be a misprint. Also, while it says daemonic gifts are immune to the effects that would work on magic items in case of destroyed and stolen, it doesn't clear up whether you have to tell the opponent what gifts he has (like if it were equiped with a mundane weapon) or if your can withold that knowledge as though they were magic items. If you can withold that knowledge, do revealing effects cast on them behave like magic items, or would that be considered "altering thier behavior" as the book vaguely states. The book also leaves questions that could affect other choices as well, such as whether the special herald choices have Locus as well.....both Skulltaker and Epidemus have the effects on themselves, but fail to say whether they effect a unit.
Generally, I'm considering the DP as a viable option until all these questions are cleared up....then I'll settle on a lord choice. We have to build armies that large in the first place before then anyway, so I think we can wat.
I don't consider a DP worth it at all. If you want magic and firepower, you can grab a same level Tzeentch herald with MoS and a tooled up HoK with daemonic steroids for less. Also, the fact that the new DP doesn't come with wings or anything either.... Its essentially a much much worse version of the HoC one. The fact that you have to pay a nice chunk of points in order to take GD gifts doesn't help it, and niether does that fact that it gets less gifts than a GD, less magic, and it doesn't really bring anything to the table that you couldn't do better with 2 heralds for cheaper. It really pisses me off that they both made DPs really bad and removed EDs as I really liked them before.
40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
Current Rep: 1337
You can buy wings for him, it now have movement 8 though. The reason for its cost is pretty simple, he can be a supportive mage and a fighty character at once. I would agree though that a GD is a better choice but it will also come at a good 200+ points more expencive. It all comes down the list you want to make. I havent written him off yet, thats for sure.the fact that the new DP doesn't come with wings or anything either
""What's the matter? Don't ya like clowns? Don't we make ya laugh?" - Captain Spaulding.
regardless of whether or not a deamon prince is usable or not (it undeniably is). Why would you take one when you could take two heralds instead? It seems that with the locus abilities and cheaper costs (two heralds for the price of one DP) while also having the same leadership would indeed mean that it wouldn't be necessary (or wise) to ever take a DP.
If I were to play Demons of Chaos (which I wont, at least not for a VERY long time, due to just having started Vampire Counts) I would use 4 heralds at 2k, and then move up to a Greater Demon at 2,250-2,500.
"I am the architect of fate!"
Why not take a DP and a herald instead of a GD? You can get the same amount done with that. Mainly, it's for point reasons.....if you can't spare the points to get the expsensive choice, you can choose the less exspensive one. You can get more out of a daemon prince than a herald, but if you have to choose between sacraficing a herald just to get a dameon prince, your going to get another herald.....but if you can afford that same herald and the daemon prince, you will probably do so as well. The situational arguement is good...but still situational as far as I'm concerned
There is a incredibly good reason to take a DP over two heralds, and that's the fact that if you don't your going to have a general with two wounds....not much chance of survival there even if in a unit. Generals are a target, a common fact, and even more so in any army that takes wounds instead of breaking. Frankly, the option wouldn't even be considerable if daemons suffered from the crumbling effects that undead armies do. Generals have to have to be able to survive the battle, and DP is going to outlive your herald general anytime.
Also, a DP has better movement than all the heralds before you even consider the fact that as a single monster (assuming it is such).
In the end, two heralds is still a good option....it's just a matter of points than anything else....as long as I don't have to sacrafice a herald to upgrade to DP, I'd likely do it.....and the same goes for daemon prince. Let's face it, argueing over why you would choose a naked DP over to equiped heralds is no different than argueing for taking an tooled up DP and Herald over a GD.