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View Poll Results: Is the Lore of Tzeentch accessible to a Master of Sorcery?

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  • Yes

    27 62.79%
  • No

    16 37.21%
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  1. #1
    Senior Member BlackSheep's Avatar
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    Master of Sorcery

    I know there was a post that mentioned in passing this daemonic gift, but I wanted to get a consensus of what everyone thought about the gift and the choice of lores.

    The gift's description is somewhat vague when dealing with what lores are available to the bearer of this daemonic gift. So, I want to get a solid answer from some of you on whether or not you think that the herald can pick the Lore of Tzeentch instead of picking a lore from the book. The way the gift is worded, it seems to suggest that the daemon can (not must) pick any lore out of the rule book instead of using its normal lore, and in addition, knows all the spells from whatever lore it chooses.

    Does the choice of lore determine whether or not the daemon knows all of the spells, or is the choice of lore irrelevant to knowing all of the spells from that lore? A few of the players at my gaming center think that the former is true.

    (If it's possible, I would ask all of those who post to read over the gift once before they post their answer. Thanks all!)

    No, I don't have any wool.

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  3. #2
    I've had enough! timk1111's Avatar
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    205 (x7)

    Though it;s not the best worded gift, it's still clear you can choose the lore of Tzeentch (as you say, use of the word 'may'), and then gets all the spells from the lore it chose.

    Tim


  4. #3
    Shrubs for the Blood God Undead Bonzi's Avatar
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    207 (x5)

    I'm actually going to disagree on this even though I wish with all my hear that it was true. I see almost no ambiguity in the wording of the power. Basing your whole argument on the word "can" vs the word "must" is weak rules lawyering at best. My thoughts have always been that if you have to rules lawyer it, it probably isn't true.

    The word "can" in this instance is in reference to the new daemons ability to now choose any of the lores from the warhammer rule book instead of its own. The second statment is clearly in regards to the fact that once you have made the choice of a rule book lore, you know all of its spells.

    The only other reasonable intepretation of the Master of Sorcery is that you "CAN" choose to keep the Lore of Tzeentch in which case you would have to roll for your spells just like a normal level two wizard because the rule needs to be bent on its head to imply that if you choose to keep your own lore you know all the spells. If GW had ment for the gift to give us all the spells of the Tzeentch lore don't you think it would be stated pretty clearly as that would be the most prominent/best use for the gift?

    Untill there is an errata it is all speculation but I myself don't see even a glimmer of the staw people are grasping on this one.
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
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  5. #4
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    476 (x8)

    I'd agree with Tim, and that seems to be the general player consensus so far. It is badly written, but if you choose the lore of tzeentch, then you get all the spells.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
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  6. #5
    Son of LO Phaeron Typhoon's Avatar
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    172 (x7)

    I agree with Bonzi on this one.

    The Rule specifically states that the daemon can choose any of the lores of magic from the rulebook. Which means the 8 basic lores. If you use RAW which is apparently what you are trying to do, it still supports this, because nowhere in the rule is the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch mentioned (unlike the specifically stated Lores in the rulebook), and nowhere in the army book is anything that would set precedence for the implication that the Daemon Lore is an option.

    It then says that the daemon knows all the spells from whichever lore it chooses. This doesn't imply that it knows the spells if it chooses the Lore of Tzeentch, because it doesn't have the option of choosing the lore of Tzeentch with Master of Sorcery. It only gets to choose from one of the Lores from the rulebook.

    I don't even see any ambiguity with this ability as long as you read the sections of rules about it in the proper order and apply the second statement directly to the first.

    I think that one of the problems with this poll is that it is posted in the DoC forum . No offense to anyone, but of course daemon players are going to want master of sorcery to give them all the spells of tzeentch.
    Last edited by Phaeron Typhoon; May 17th, 2008 at 15:15.
    "I am the architect of fate!"

  7. #6
    Member Hollow_Man's Avatar
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    To me it seems to be very, very clear.

    "can use any of the Lores of Magic from the Warhammer rulebook instead of its normal Lore"

    This means:

    -you can decide whether or not to use the ability, when rolling for spells at the start of the battle

    -if you use the ability, you must choose lores from the brb

    -if you use the ability, you lose the knowledge of tzeentch spells
    It's better, it's shiny, it's warped...it's Chaos.

  8. #7
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    476 (x8)

    It doesn't preclude the lore of tzeentch being chosen - MoS does not say you must take one of the lores from the BRB, only that you can. That leaves the Lore of Tzeentch (which is still a "Lore") available as an option.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
    <3 rork. He does all the arguing so I don't have to.

  9. #8
    I've had enough! timk1111's Avatar
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    205 (x7)

    Hmm, I see the difficulties in this spell now.

    Thing is, the power doesn't replace the part in the army list that says 'A herald of Tzeentch always uses spells from the Lore of Tzeentch', it's an additional power.

    So, put the two together. 'He always uses the Lore of Tzeentch BUT CAN choose spells from the BRB instead of it's normal lore'. That's what happens, and is the best way to put it.

    So the way you guys are using the word 'can' is with asumption that his normal rules are replaced. They are not.

    Demandred, the way you state the rules don't specify the Lore of Tzeentch is strange. It doesn't say it affects the Lore of Fire, but it'll still work. Why? Because they are BOTH LORES. The ability doesn't descriminate between lores.

    All this said, it will be in the FAQ for sure.

    Tim
    Last edited by timk1111; May 18th, 2008 at 01:55.


  10. #9
    Shrubs for the Blood God Undead Bonzi's Avatar
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    207 (x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by timk1111 View Post
    Hmm, I see the difficulties in this spell now.

    Thing is, the power doesn't replace the part in the army list that says 'A herald of Tzeentch always uses spells from the Lore of Tzeentch', it's an additional power.

    So, put the two together. 'He always uses the Lore of Tzeentch BUT CAN choose spells from the BRB instead of it's normal lore'. That's what happens, and is the best way to put it.

    So the way you guys are using the word 'can' is with asumption that his normal rules are replaced. They are not.

    Demandred, the way you state the rules don't specify the Lore of Tzeentch is strange. It doesn't say it affects the Lore of Fire, but it'll still work. Why? Because they are BOTH LORES. The ability doesn't descriminate between lores.

    All this said, it will be in the FAQ for sure.

    Tim

    In that your wrong Tim, the gift does list Lore of Fire when it says "may use any of the Lores from the Warhammer rule book" Lore of Fire is a Warhammer rulebook lore, thus the gift is very specific that you can use lore of fire with Master of Sorcery. What Demandred mentions is that Tzeentches Lore is never specifically mentioned in the gift in the same way the rule book lores are pointed out, others are merely trying to say that it is implied, thus the weakness of the argument.

    Also I can't be sure but in think your assesment of Master of Sorcery you seem to ignore the word "instead" (god didn't i just gripe about basing an argument on one word? I am such a hypocrit). "Instead" is unambiguous in its meaning...dirived from the older english phrase "in its stead" meaning in place of or in substitution of. That is the word I think has the most meaning in this gift "instead"...though I hate basing an argument off of it.
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
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  11. #10
    I've had enough! timk1111's Avatar
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    205 (x7)

    Then just read the whole sentence at once. 'He can choose a lore fom the BRB instead of it's normal lore'.

    Doesn't say he must, nor does it REPLACE his existing entry, that states he ALWAYS chooses the Lore of Tzeentch, it's an additional ability.

    Then, 'he knows all spells from which ever lore he chooes' is said seperatley.


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