Vaul's Unmaking vs Daemonic Icon? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21
  1. #1
    Ahhhhh.... nekochen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    34
    Posts
    1,233
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    110 (x4)

    Vaul's Unmaking vs Daemonic Icon?

    I ran in this problem yesterday playing against a friend, and we ended up dicing D6 for it so the game can go on.

    Do High Elf magic Vaul's Unmaking affects Icons? Unlike the Daemonic Gifts, they do not have the same description which makes them immune to spells like this, but Daemonic Icons are not magic items (at least that's how I interpret it). "Magic Items" under the rulebook has its own specific rules: one per army, etc. etc., while Daemonic Icons ignore that rule which pretty much makes it stand out of the category. Am I wrong?


  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Shrubs for the Blood God Undead Bonzi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    right behind you
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,144
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    207 (x5)

    The section for the gifts is called "Daemonic Gifts", the gifts are not considered magic items and Vauls Unmaking does not effect them. The section describing the banners is called "Daemonic Icons" and nowhere is 'magic item' mentioned. Thus, in my mind, the precedent from the Daemoic gifts not being magical items applys to the Daemonic Icons as well. The best way to think of it is this, 'Daemonic' should be thought of as a new class of item not previously existing. Now in the WHFB universe there are mundane, magic and daemonic items.
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
    -Undead Bonzi

  4. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Age
    29
    Posts
    82
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    4 (x1)

    I would like to know then why the Daemonic Icons section doesnt have the same Magic Items disclaimer as the Daemonic Gifts. The flavor text for the Daemonic Icons all describe them as Banners or Standards, and Rules as Intended seems to lean toward them having magical properties (Thus Magic Standards/Magic Items) It seems to be a matter of RAI vs Rules as Omitted

    "Since they dont say its a magic item, then it must not count as one"

    Where as daemonic gifts specifically states its not one. Why would they leave that out of Icons if it didnt mean that they were to be intended as magical items?

  5. #4
    Shrubs for the Blood God Undead Bonzi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    right behind you
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,144
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    207 (x5)

    Take it this way. Since the Daemonic Icons heading has the word 'Daemonic' in it and absolutely no mention of the word 'Magic' or 'Magical' any where in the title or the descriptions of the items, it is fairly easy to infer that the rule for 'Daemonic' Gifts is more likely to apply to the 'Daemonic' Icons than are the rules for 'Magic' Banners.

    In every other army book in the game 'Magic' Banners are found in a section titled 'Magic Banners'....which seems to imply 'magical' properties...seems pretty pointed that the title of our section is called Daemonic Icons.

    Of course all that is purely RAW.

    If you want to go RAI you would have to explain to me why our Daemonic Gifts would be immune to anti-magical effects, but our Daemonic Icons wouldn't be.

    Most people on this forum know that I hate arguing rules (either RAW or RAI) and will usually take the conservative side of the argument just to be safe, in this instance I find too little evidence or ambiguity to sway my from thinking our Icons cannot be treated as magic items....that said out of all the things I've argued this is the one the GW will errata just to spite me.
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
    -Undead Bonzi

  6. #5
    /botnobot/ DavidWC09's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Wayward, Texas
    Posts
    12,489
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    1283 (x8)

    I disagree. Page 92 clearly states that gifts are excepted from things like Vaul's Unmaking. The Icon entry lacks that statement; therefore, they do not benefit from it. After all, it's a physical thing being held, not some inherent gift of the demon itself.
    Painting Videos--My Warriors of Chaos--WHFB Tactica Index
    *************************************************

  7. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Age
    29
    Posts
    82
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    4 (x1)

    Rules as written, is that Gifts specifically state (as davidvc says) that its excepted from that rule, whereas icons are not excluded.

  8. #7
    Tyranid Warrior Fanatic Phalanx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    29
    Posts
    2,668
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    146 (x7)

    Also, we can take more than one of each Icon. You can't have multiples of a magical item in an army.

    Also, don't bother arguing that them being magical items is RAI. Did you create the rules? Did you ask the d00d who create the rules? No? Didn't think so. Therefore you actually have less of a base than the people who use it as it heavily implies when you argue the opposite is what was intended. Arguing that something is RAI without having a statement from the writer is 99% of the time meaningless because there is a very good chance that you are wrong.

    David, there are a couple of armours and weapons that are gifts_> ex: torment blade. They are things held (torment blade counts as a hand weapon) and used, but they are still daemonic gifts. Why would it be different for the standards? Can one thing be held and be a gift and another can't?
    40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
    Current Rep: 1337

  9. #8
    /botnobot/ DavidWC09's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Wayward, Texas
    Posts
    12,489
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    1283 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx View Post
    Also, we can take more than one of each Icon. You can't have multiples of a magical item in an army.

    Also, don't bother arguing that them being magical items is RAI. Did you create the rules? Did you ask the d00d who create the rules? No? Didn't think so. Therefore you actually have less of a base than the people who use it as it heavily implies when you argue the opposite is what was intended. Arguing that something is RAI without having a statement from the writer is 99% of the time meaningless because there is a very good chance that you are wrong.

    David, there are a couple of armours and weapons that are gifts_> ex: torment blade. They are things held (torment blade counts as a hand weapon) and used, but they are still daemonic gifts. Why would it be different for the standards? Can one thing be held and be a gift and another can't?
    Erm, because the blades are actually part of the demons? Or something.

    When it comes down to it, I think it's what neoend said. One has a clear exception. The other does not.
    Painting Videos--My Warriors of Chaos--WHFB Tactica Index
    *************************************************

  10. #9
    Shrubs for the Blood God Undead Bonzi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    right behind you
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,144
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    207 (x5)

    Ah, but as I said...there is even less indication that the Daemonic Icons should be treated as magical items than there is that they shouldn't be treated the same as Daemonic Gifts.

    The word 'magic' or 'magical' is not mentioned even once in adjective form in the whole section of Daemonic Icons. Why would our section be called Daemonic Icons when ever other armies section is called Magical Banners? If you want RAI, that is more telling than any omission.
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
    -Undead Bonzi

  11. #10
    Tyranid Warrior Fanatic Phalanx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    29
    Posts
    2,668
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    146 (x7)

    I agree with Bonzi here. There are things that suggest the Icons are daemonic gifts and the only reason to think otherwise is because it doesn't say on the page "these are daemonic gifts". However, it also doesn't state they're magical items. Its just a lot more strongly implied that they're daemonic gifts than magical items, especially since you can take multiples.
    40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
    Current Rep: 1337

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts