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due to college obligations i haven't played warhammer in quite a long time (since the daemon army book came out lol)... so i was wondering was it worth to reanimate my slaaneshi army? could you offer some general advice on herald builds (on foot/seeker mounted?), daemonette/seeker/fiend optimum unit sizes and builds and some general advice how to be a succesfull daemon player in the 8th edition? i plan on mostly playing games up to 2250pts, but i do think that most of them will be around 1000-1500 pts (our local gaming club is rather small, and crowded with just too many players for such a small place, so ppl prefer playing smaller scale games, so that everything runs faster and everybody has time to get a table )
Bigger. Better. Waaagh.
Well, you can't really go wrong with Daemons - they're a downright nasty army right now. Slaaneshi units play very similarly to High Elves, and it's definitely worth having one in each of your Daemonette units for the ASF. As for builds etc. I'm not much of a DoC player, I've got friends who run them but he's just started really tweeking out his lists, and he runs lots of multi-god type stuff.
Daemonette's work well in 20-30 though, they're not very tough, not very strong, and you'll want the ranks since they're going to be your main line regiments. Seekers, a bit different since they're cavalry and cavalry took a pretty serious nerfing this edition. 5-7 without a Herald is probably best, unless they're under 20pts, in which case experimenting with 10-12 with a Herald in the unit could be interesting.
I actually don't see Fiends that often these days, so I can't comment.
Sorry, I know it's not the most helpful, but it's better than this thread going for days on end without replies.
Just thought i would throw this in seeing as your just beggining out... from my personal experience i'm going to give a break down of most useful to least useful
1) kairos - Straight up second best mage, the only reason i see him as second best is because teclis is badass
2) Skarbrand - Far too expensive for what he is and can be quiet a handful to control
3) Ku'gath - Never really found a use for him
1) Bloodthirster - One hell of a power house, can normally make double his points back if you have some luck on your side, best used against infantry,
2) Great Unclean One - As far as I know, best monster hunter in the game, balesword is rediculous, only problem is that hes not fast, so lore of shadows comes in handy, best used against big things that hurt alot
3) Keeper of Secrets - This is my personal favourite model... mainly because i have a ld base army, LD banner, masque... so a pimped out kipper to make lots of ld tests is great, but to a keeper fills a very specific role, you will get better attacks from bloodthirster, more defence from GOU, and more sorcery from LoC...
4) Lord of Change -I see very little point in taking this, with the restrictions to magic in 8th, and how awesome kairos is, it doesnt really seem worthy to pick him
5) Daemon Prince - Barely worth a mention... basically falls over way too fast, hes cheaper... but like the old saying goes, you pay for what you get
1) Blue Scribes - Cheapest hero daemons get, and you will average 7-8 power dice, so they are needed wherever you can get them, depending on who your playing this lil fella can be very good or very bad, i.e. brilliant against high elves, useless against dwarfs... to make the most of him your really need either kairos or a Herald of tzeentch with Mastery of Sorcery
2) The Masque - While shes quite good, shes oh so fragile, and while shes got a better than average wardsave, with only 2 wounds shes going to get picked off fairly quick if your not careful hiding her
3) Epidermus - Requires an army made up mostly out of nurgly units... so while GOU and nurglings are good... most of the other units are lacking
4) Skulltaker - Looks an absolute beast on paper, normal armour saves, special rules up the wazzoo and can take a mount... problem is, his special rule forces him to make a challenge, to gain the super killing blow rule, and people can always refuse a challenge... as such he becomes rather useless... the only time people will accept a challenge off him is when they know they can beat him.
1) HoT - Tzerald are brilliant for their points cost, getting a loremaster for 140 points? yes please... add wings so he can float about the field being where he is needed most and you have a obeast and half
2) HoK - Better than skulltaker... mainly because of the locus effect, put him in a horde of bloodletters and few things will stand up against them... honestly love this fella - with a possible 1+ armour save 5+ ward and 4+ against magic, this is a model specifically built to be a bsb
3) HoS - Can be quite useful, however, if your looking at killing power, HoK 9/10 times does better... like most slaanesh things, its very very fast, but oh so fragile
4) HoN - Was pretty damn decent in 7th, regeneration across the bored... but because of the rules in 8th, nurgle got a beating hard... and as only a possible lvl 1 wizard hes not even worth taking for that... HoN with plaguebearers are still our anvil unit... but they aren't a very good anvil now
1) Bloodletters - Just the raw killing power of these put them above the rest, without a herald they are only marginally behind Daemonettes WITH a herald
2) Furies - I know some people out there hate furies because of their horrible stat line, but in the daemon book you are going to be hardpressed to find better throwaway unit, furies are there to die... you know it, your opponent knows it, but their is nothing they can do about them ruining their day, redirecting charge, screening shots, machine/lone wizzard hunting... they are just great in my opinion
3) Daemonettes - They are fast and can harass flanks with surprising decency... like the herald, oh so fragile though, they arent the best daemons for going up against a force head on, far better for disrupting flanks of the enemy
4) Pink Horrors - Was one of the best core units in 7th... in 8th they are near the bottom of core... the limitations of magic make them mostly pointless, in small games they can be useful, they make a nice bunker for your HoT, but in larger games, they wont be using any spells... as most larger games you have 2+ wizards, and the horrors dont make a useful combat unit, though a 4+ save with herald they are a nice bunker... and a bit like a paper anvil
5) Plaguebearers - I had a friend that had a full nurgle army, herald of nurgle in each plaguebearer unit was simply unstoppable, you just couldn't kill them... with the regeneration nerf they are only half as useful, they will likely strike last in most combats, though their toughness will make them survive for the most part... i tend to think of them as tough bloodletters that lack killing power
1) Nurglings - Best special unit we have by far, scouts... scouts with 3 wounds, and 3 attacks parked close enough is going to draw a lot of attention, so instead of a unit of archers firing at your bloodthirster they may choose to fire are the nurglings, which with so many wounds is possible to survive... they are their to draw attention, and they tend to be very good it, they are no push over in combat either with poisons attacks
2) Flesh Hounds - A good unit, too pricey for what you get, needs to be at least 5 points cheaper per hound in my opinion to get them in line with other cavalry, with huge magic resistance no magic damage is ever going to target them
3) Seekers - Same as the other Slaanesh models... fast but fragile... still with the options of FC and a standard of some kind, their is some use to them... but, for points... gets something else... theirs nearly always a cheaper more effective unit than seekers
4) Screamers - Possibly the worst unit in the DoC unit, they die far far far too easily, and their stat line is just horrible... shame because i like the models
Rare: (Hardest section the top 3 are about the same in usefulness)
1) Fiends - Dirt cheap, fast, alot of attacks, decent toughness for a slaanesh unit and wounds enough to survive for a while... best used for flank attacks so soporific musk comes into play
2) Flamers - Shooting! ahmahgawd! shooting! in a daemon army... 1 of 2 units in the book that shoots (other being the massively overpriced Ku'gath) not only that, but the shooting can be pretty kick ass shooting as well... normally a favourite with daemon players
3) Bloodcrushers - Our hardest unit, they dish out a lot of hurt and can take a pounding in return, the problem that they have is they are a bit pricey, but with optional upgrades they will win most combats
4) Beasts of Nurgle - Don't. Ever. Pick. These. They are straight up bad... lets compare against a fiend: Beast has 4 less movement, 1 less weapon skill, 1 better toughness, 1 more wound, 5 less initiative, and a random attack... with fiend you get quiet high number of attacks for a single model, with beast you can possibly get 2 less, or a possible 3 more... depending on dice roles... and for something you are paying 45 points more, is it really the best way to spend your points?
Right then... there's a basic breakdown
As for slaanesh... you seem to like that particular god, the kipper can be good, especially when boosted up in wizard size can work really well in conjunction with the mask... if you are running with a bsb your best standard will be the great icon of despair... getting the enemy to take lots of ld tests and reduce the ld, also in the daemonic FAQ it states that while the enemies can use the bsb or generals leadership if within distance, that leadership will still be modified... so even at max 10 leadership, they have to roll 6 or under, as the average roll of 2 d6 peaks around 7-8 its possible for slicing shards of slaanesh to completely annihilate a horde in 1 turn... note most players like to bring at least 1 horde... and if you can kill their horde... its going to hurt them lots... like game winning lots
Daemonettes... are just not worth it imo, same with seekers, however fiends are a prize... best used for flanking, and machine hunting, useful also for redirecting off the board, best used as a single model... maybe 2 at a push
Hope this helped... just a quick word of warning, this is from my experience, and as such its not gospel... just some friendly advice
finding some space for naked Rhinos
i think you are underrating daemonettes a bit with the new 8th edition rules they often get to re roll missed hits in combat now when a herald is with them and with all the attacks you can get i have found them to be soooo affected
Last edited by sirkently; November 6th, 2011 at 02:22.
oh really? heres a break down of kill count averages against different opponents
Ws2 T3 As6+ Wa6+:
Bloodletters /w herald: 6.79
Daemonettes /w herald: 5.93
bloodletters with herald come out just ontop, with slaanesh /w herald second, closely followed by bloodletters
Ws3 T3 As6+
Bloodletters /w herald: 9.15
Daemonettes /w herald: 7.11
same result, only large margins
Ws3 T4 As6+
Bloodletters /w herald: 6.52
Daemonettes /w herald: 4.74
both slaanesh unuts lose out to basic bloodletters
Ws4 T3 As1+
Bloodletters /w herald: 3.80
Daemonettes /w herald: 1.19
bloodletters again, clearly dominate... due to killing blow special rule
Ws4 T3 As5+
Bloodletters /w herald: 8.15
Daemonettes /w herald: 5.93
Ws4 T4 As5+
Bloodletters /w herald: 6.52
Daemonettes /w herald: 3.95
Ws5 T4 As4+
Bloodletters /w herald: 4.81
Daemonettes /w herald: 2.67
Ws5 T6 As4+
Bloodletters /w herald: 2.52
Daemonettes /w herald: 1.33
because basic unit costs the same, the cost effectiveness is securely in favour of bloodletters, and even with the more expensive herald because of the buff it gives. its more than makes up for its cost, infact in horde formation the bloodletters are, I believe, the most cost effective daemon unit there is
I'm not saying daemonettes dont have their place... what i am saying, is that they dont compare to bloodletters for sheer awesomeness. because of their speed, they are good for flanking and generally getting things done... but if you want a force that can take on most units... go with the letters
finding some space for naked Rhinos
Here the thing though, daemonettes strike first and with shadow magic you will wipe out a unit per turn. I use two units of 30 with a herald with siren song each. Siren song is the dirtest trick in the daemon book, I have won tournaments by this power alone
I can confirm the siren song and siren standard are highly effective in competitive play. So much so it's worth considering bringing the daemonettes despite the Killcount breakdown mentioned above.
Warchief Diggah o da Bloodmoon Squiggahs
and you be worng about beasts of Nurgle, make a unit of 3x2, 600pts and watch it destroy twice as much points, with poision, T5, W4, regen and NO FLANKS, knights bounce off, cannon balls bounce off, bloodthirsters bounce off, even things with flaming can only bring down the beasts save to a 5+ instead of the normal 4+, thats a lot of wounds!
use them on a flank and watch the magic happen
I wouldn't 100% on the assessment of Kairos. He's really good, but he's also I 1, which means he can be easily snipped by spells that require an initiative test. The other specials I agree with.
GUO has lost some status since you can't use regen and a ward save in 8th. Also, he costs too much as a Lv 4 wizard to fit in 2500 pts in 8th. The monster hunting is great and all, but his lack of mobility (can't fly, 4" movement) may prevent you from ever getting into combat.
KoS again has the same issues with points at 2500, and he also has only a 5+ ward. Given close 25% of your army's pts are sunk into this guy, 5+ wards are risky against the random cannonball.
The BT and LoC tend to do the best in play. A BT with Immortal Fury and some other minor upgrades tends to get his points worth. He can't fly over tarpit units and wreack whatever he gets to. The LoC with robes, power vortex, and master of sorcery tends to do quite well. Take him with Lore of Death and he can easily get into position to launch a nasty Purple Sun as well as snipe heroes. 4+ ward and only wound on a 3+ will keep him around for awhile. Pair him up with a Tzerald with Lore of Life, and it's a nasty combo.
Masque is the only named herald that seems to be worth her points, and to that end, she's really good for what she does.
On heralds, it's important to note how important the BSB is. Standard of Sundering or Despair. Sundering is especially vital to protect against Lore of Life, and can help you shut down your opponents magic.
HoN: Not much good anymore due to the change in regen rules.
HoS: Siren song and ASF are both pretty awesome.
HoK: Good to take as your bsb. Give him a standard and Armor of Khorne. Hatred is great.
HoT: Great with the new magic rules. Loremaster with Lore of Life is really potent. You can juice BL's up to T5/7 and bring daemons back to life. At 12 pts a pop, this is really good. Dwellers and Life Bloom are also great.
Horrors: Bunker for your HoT. 19 of them with Icon of Sorc, done.
PBs: Not so much.
BL's vs Daemonnettes: This is really a judgment call. They both have the same durability, T3 5+ ward. In the first round of CC BL's have the advantage, but if you anticipate fighting large blocks of weak units, Daemonettes are better. Horded BL's tend to be very popular horded as well. Daemonettes supported by a Tzerald with Shadows are also really nasty. Siren's call is incredibly potent, especially when dealing with tarpits that could tie down your killy units. You can go either way, just support them properly. Personally, I slant toward BL's with Lore of Life for a take all comers approach. 30 (or over 40 if horded) of them with S5 T5 will crack most anything.
Screamers: Great for warmachine hunting countering flanking units. The free S5 hit fly over is nasty. Highly moble. Not the worst of the bunch.
Seekers: Really quick, but don't do anything you couldn't do better other units since only the steeds have poison.
Hounds: Probably the best of the bunch. Fast enough to flank or war machine hunt. T4, S5, and Magic Resistence 3 (2++ against magic). Pricier, but well worth it.
Nurglings: Not sure what the point of them is. Not a good tarpit (too pricy), and too slow to flank and no shooting to hunt war machines.
Flamers: As mentioned, the best shooting in the army has, flaming shots, 2 wounds, good BS, and mobile.
Fiends: Really good as a solo "dart" unit to maneuver between your enemies blocks and attack weak wizards, specialist units, or other weak points.
Beasts of Nurgle: At 100 pts a pop, 3 of them cost as much as 25 bloodletters or two tricked out Tzheralds. 15 poisoned attacks on average isn't bad, but I feel I can get better options from other parts of the army.
Blood Crushers: Same as Beasts, dunno if the killy is worth the cost. With the new steadfast rules, uber calvary can just run in and wreck a block of troops like it used to. 3 BCs with a standard plus a herald is really nasty, it's also 400 points. Other units can war machine hunt and flank better. Not bad is your opponent has some high T units that are multi-wound and in the 4+ armor save range.
It's funny, everybody discredits Nurgle a little too much. If you run Epedemius with a Tzerald of Light you have a very terrifying army. Basic setup is a gigantic block of Plague Bearers with an Icon of Eternal Virulence with a horror bunker hiding a Herald of Tzeentch with the Lore of Light. Then you fill the rest with other nurgle units. It's the only army I have ever won combat by 22 with. Plague Bearers are slow, but when you poison on 4+ with S4 and I10, it's nasty.
40k: Silver Angels of Our Martyred Lady 7/2/3 - Daemons of the Great Squiggle! 3/1/0
Fantasy: Windhost of Athel'Loren 2/0/0 - Daemons of Another Great Squiggle! 0/0/0
Warmahordes: Legion of Everblight (Absylonia)