Agoniser Or Punishers?

[Archonbjorn]

Its only a shame that the punisher costs so much. I mean if you look @ the eldar range (howling banshee exarch) youll see a weapon called a executioner +2S no amrour saves allowed for just 5 points! Doesnt make sense to me. . .Anyway the S5 attacks are still good vs marines etc because you can wound on a 3+ or most things on a 2+. the only downside is when you face big monsters that ''lock you up'' in CC because you need 5/6's to wound them (WL for excample)

[Non Marine Player]

Yknow, as Punishers are two handed weapons, that combination is highly illegal.

If its highly illegal, then most of the Deldar players i know might have to change tack a bit, including me....

[Toloran]

If its highly illegal, then most of the Deldar players i know might have to change tack a bit, including me....

I believe the latest DE errata changed it so you CAN give a jetbike punishers. In any case:

Agonizer vs Punisher isn't really a matter of "which is better?" but more of "what is the unit and what is it likely to fight?"

By themselves against MEQs, Punishers are slightly worse then Agonizers due to either having one less attack or costing 4-5 more points due to Punishers requiring an 5pt upgrade to get the extra attack vs agonizers only requiring a 1pt upgrade (which a lot of models come with already). Agonizers are a good "balanced" choice since by their very design they are equally effective against basically everything.

Punishers are best used in combination with other wargear or if you expect to fight a variety of opponents (or, more specifically, a variety of toughnesses). The greatest strength of the Agonizer is also it's greatest drawback. It doesn't matter if you are fighting against a Carnifex, a Marine, or a Guardsmen, it is always going wound on a 4+. Punishers, however, can vary. Combined with combat drugs, you can kill marines on a 3+ rather then a simple 4+. Stacking it yet again with an animus vitae or jetbike lets you wound a marine on a 2+ and instant kill guardsmen. However, to get that kind of power, you have to stack a LOT more points then you would need with an agonizer. Also since punishers are rather reliant on Combat Drugs, you run the increased risk of having to use the +1S effect in addition to whatever other effects you want.

A secondary (and sometimes overlooked) benefit of a Punisher is in it's tank killing ability: Most vehicles (not all, of course) have armor 10 in the rear. A Punisher and an Agonizer both can glance it on a 6. However, A Punisher that has been enhanced by other gear (Animus Vitae, Combat Drugs, and/or Jetbike) can even penetrate that kind of armor. Agonizers, however, will always glance at best and only on a 6 at that.

In general, it boils down to this:

Use a Punisher if...
- You have points to spare
- Expect to fight mostly things with T4 or less
- Want the model to have a good chance vs tanks.

Use an Agonizer if...
- You don't want to spend a lot of points.
- You expect to fight mostly things with T4 or higher.

[Lost Nemesis]

The last post here was in 2005, Non Marine Player. Things've changed over the course of the past 4-5 years ... also, there is a dedicated thread to this topic stickied here, so I'd recommend using that instead of this one.

Cheers!

[Non Marine Player]

I should probably remember to look at the date on the threads.... sorry! :/

[Anum Gara]

I use an Archon (Has more bas attacks) with Tormentor Helm, Punisher, Animus Vitae and Combat Drugs for High Strength with a high rate of attacks, with an Incubi Retinue (+2 Warriors with Splinter Cannons)
I also have (In the same army list) a 'Lone Dracon', who wanders round with a 2+ inv. (Shadowfield) and the Agonizer combo with Haywire Grenades and Drugs for taking out tough opponents Such as Wraithlords, vehicles, etc.... :p Works well for me


EDIT; Sorry didn't realise :p