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Hey guys, I need some help with the DE's. I'm a longtime Orc and Goblin player and cant seem to grasp how to win with my new guys.My main opponent is playing Magic Heavy Vampire Counts.
Here's a 2250 army list I have been working on, please give me your input.I need a win!
Dreadlord (w/Warriors) 249
Armour of Eternal Serv.
Seal of Ghrond
Master BSB (w/BG) 155
Armour of Darkness
Ring of Hotek
Sorc. Lv.1 150
2 Dispel Scrolls
Sorc. Lv. 1 150
2 Dispel Scroll
24 Warriors 208
10 Crossbows 105
12 Corsairs 133
Handbows/Pair for Reaver
5 Dark Riders 92
17 Bl. Guard 316
5 COK 210
St. of Slaughter
10 Witch Elves 110
Reaper Bolt Thrower 100
Reaper Bolt Thrower 100
Guys, please take a look and give me any suggestions you may have for fighting magic heavy Vampire Counts and how I can better this army.
One of my main opponents has a VC and I've play against it alot. And I found it difficult to play against in the beginning.
He wasn't a blood knight kinda guy so what to do against them I'm not sure but I can give you some pointers for the rest.
First off the moment I noticed VC isn't really harder then other armies was when we switched armies. I read the armybook and made an armylist. It was then when I saw weaknesses I didn't notice during my battles against him.
What is important in order to beat him?
Take down his characters
Vampires are strong and they are tough. But they lack a decent save. They can get a 2+ Arsv with regen at max on foot and 1+ Arsv with regen on a horse. All the vampires are casters and raise their units back up when you shoot them down. Taking them down is important. His general is the most important but usually best protected. My personal preferance is to take down his other vampires and his general for last because the other vamps are weaker.
Take out his light cav / flyers
By taking out his light cav/ flyers they are only left with their infantry (and probably a unit knights). This can be difficult though. My opponent used to field 2 units of wolves and 2 units of bats. He hid his units behind the bats and marched on. With the bats being skirmish my arrows weren't enough to wound him. You're good off with some magic for this.
If my VC opponent would field some light cav and flyers I would dispose of them so I have the upperhand in movement and a rear / flank charge from some dark riders can crumble an entire units but don't get to cocky because dark riders also easily die. You need to setup the trap.
Don't take to small units
The most annyoing thing against VC is having a small unit have a bad roll and autobreaking because you lost the combat and the fearcausing enemy unit outnumbers you.
About your list
Try magic yourself. Get a Level 4 wizzard give her sacrificial dagger Place her in your Warrior unit, add 2 scrolls and for other heroes try 2 masters and an assasin.
Assasin can be equiped in 3 usefull ways:
I usually take the first option. But the last one can instant kill a vampire general. 5-7 attacks need a 3+ to hit with reroll hits (hatred) and then to wound you must hit a 6 and he's down! The last option is the most expensive though.
- Additional handweapon, manbane, rune of khaine. - gives 5-7 3+wound attacks
- Additional handweapon, manbane, rendering stars - gives less attacks but against chariots it has S7 throwing stars instant killing his black coach on hit (2+)
- Additional handweapon, rune of khaine, cheapest poison + killing blow weapon (forgot names) with this you have 5-7 killing blow attacks without poison and give double CR in challange.
BSB isn't worth it IMO against VC, when you lose combat you're probably outnumbered.
I would drop the crossbowmen. They make deploying difficult and against VC not to effective.
24 warriors, if you go for a sacrificial dagger caster I would add a few warriors.
Drop handbows on corsairs buff the corsairs up to 18 (6x3)
add 6 Harpies - marchblock / charge wolves / hunt lonely wizzards / rear-flank charge zombies
Buff the witch elves to 21 (7x3)
add 6 shades they can scout and really annoy the enemy. Stay close behind him and keep shooting unit the rest of you army arrives and then rear charge him. Against tough enemies take GW for skellies I'd rather have an additional handweapon.
I wouldn't take RBT against VC very easily, they raise what you shoot down. I would drop them both in order for you to afford the comments earlies.
If all fails try this CoK unit with BSB, the Hydra banner gives all models + mounts in the units an extra attack:
6 Cold one Knights,
Full command, Standard of Slaughter
BSB, Cold one, heavy armour, shield, lance, SDC, Hydra Banner
vampire counts are one of the armies , witch elves actually do their work so send them!
unit of 18 or 21 will do,
also vampire counts go magic heavy, so use some magic protectionlike null talismand, dispel scrolls , seal of ghrond
agree on the level 4 supreme en go for the weak spot, I would pick 2 RBT for the cavalry or stronger units
and some Hydra to Terrorize enemies
Oh and one more thing nevaar put a dreadlord in a warriors unit
Dark Elf General
Hey Guys, thanks for the replies. I've thought of going Supreme Sorc. vs. the Counts but I havent had the guts to take the Dreadlord out yet. My oponent plays his general VERY point heavy with max vampiric powers as well as 2+ save and 4+ ward so he's tough to kill.His magic is what seems to do me in thus all the defensive items I chose for this draft.I've done large units and still been overwhelmed by the sheer number of models he's brought out with magic.
If I were to bring the lv.4, how would I take out his vamps, especially that pesky Vampire Lord he brings?
Also, why not put the Dready in with the Warriors?I would think his killing prowess along with their SCR should be a good combo. Guys, please let me know.I've got a game coming up in a week and a dominant victory would be sweet.
ok , in that way yes it might be good to put a dread in there , but I would use a dreadlord with the black guard with hag graef to buff him ultimatly , asf , and stuff like that
That way maybe , you can use a BSB with a magic banner within another unit also use a null talisman on black guard.
What I usually use as a killer , is a noble with armour of eternal servitude on a chariot, with lance null talisman heavy armour shield sea dragon cloak , thats an awesome 1+ for a noble + regeneration and with impact hits and some good high S hits np , even against a vampire this ll work , and then you can use a level 4 sorceress with some nice gear as normal. ( Mine is usually level 4 with pendant and Black staff)
RBT do the job for killing instantly with 6 shots and the possibility to get 2 for each rare choice, even a S6 shot with no as causing D3 is immense ( i killed a chaos warrior heroe with it in one turn) , so a vampire could be pierced
Hydra's can take on possible regenration saves with their breath! Not mentionin Terror
dont fear zombies or skeletons, a regiment of 24 or 20 dark elfs can hold their ground.
I hope I helped you
Dark Elf General
The Ring of Hotek won't help you here, a smart VC player will just throw single dice at each spell.
VCs have surprisingly bad anti-magic, so if you go on the offensive you can hurt him badly. Go nuts with the Lore of Fire and destroy his Regen or take Lore of Metal and snipe his characters out. The Dark Lore is handy too, bladewind will rip up his weaker units and can snipe out characters, Soul Stealer works a treat on his low T units, Black Horror will do well, and Word of Pain is always useful (bye-bye Grave Guard!)
2 level 2 Sorceresses with Sacrificial Dagger, Scroll and Darkstar Cloak, scroll should do well. Another Sorc wouldn't hurt either, level 2 with Tome of Furion and Seal of Ghrond.
Heartseeker fails, there are a lot of better magic weapons. A simple Soulrender is sufficient. For your Dreadlord, Pendant, Armor of Eternal Servitude and Soulrender is a potent set up.
Stick the Dagger with a block of naked spearmen, they have 1 purpose.
Crossbowmen are good.
DRs could use RxBs for added fire support.
BG are brutal, I love them.
Consider an Assassin with Rune of Khaine and Touch of Death. He can kill a Vampire in 1 combat round. He will have skeleton champions to challenge and protect his vampire, so put the Assassin in your BG. Your Dreadlord will challenge, he will accept with the champion and you position your assassin to his the Vamp. 1 KB later and his army is falling apart.
The plan with VCs is to kill more than he can raise to keep him from using Van Hels or summoning new units and killing his casters.
Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com
WOW guys, I knew came to the right place for help.The ideas you have given so far are different than what I would have thought about.
Here's a question.What character combo would work better vs. the Vampire Counts?
1) Dreadlord w/2 kitted Sorc. and a yet to be decided character
2) Supreme Sorc. w/death-dealing Master and 2 yet to be decided characters
Thanks for all the help so far, please keep it coming.This stuff is great.
Personally I would go for option numero 2
-a supreme sorceress with some nice casting gear and protection (pendant) would be great.
-A killer master as I mentioned before, chariot or manticore at least something strong.
for the 2 chars;
-I would get a level 2 sorceress (lore of fire vs regeneration possibility) with a scroll and a darkstar cloak/sacrificial dagger (gives more power dice and more dispel dice aaaaaand has a scroll)
- ok for the fourth option go for a BsB with a magic banner / or some offensive gear for just the +1 cr bonus and a nice combative add-on
or Instead of a BsB a nice Assassin with rune of khaine and some other equipment
<So far so good?>
---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------
Ok , without any magic gear expect the ones mentioned above you would have 8 PD and 5 DD and one scroll, that sounds pretty good
Dark Elf General
this strategy depends on where he positions his general but. If he have a magic/combat general (I assume this as per his good AS and ward) and do not have the anti KB item. Kit your dreadlord with pendant+ethernal servitude+deathpiercer+mount charge (yeah I forgot the usual shield and seadragon cloak he'll get at least +3/2+ AS with regen and reverse ward then depend on mount you'll get even better up to 1+/0+ with a cold one) his unit containing the general and challenge him. You will most likely not die and get KB sooner or later. After you KB his general continue on to his other characters. And as other stated magic is a weakness so go crazy with lvl2 sorceresses. IMO against VC the only good magic defense is dispel dice as most of his spells will be cast with one die on his own units, so null talisman and ring will be instant useless and against one die spell scrolls are kind of a waste too. You've got to have one or two scrolls though in case he uses other spells but 4 is overkill. for dark rider I really advice against shields, loosing the fast cav rule is really bad... and I'd advise to take rxbs. I also is not too fond of corsairs. I think warriors really does better since you'll get the same results with less points. Shades with great weapons are really good and can hunt necromancers with good result. I'm also not too fond of witch elves although it is just a matter of taste. If you can protect them well enough and know how to prevent both hatred and frenzy being exploited then they are quite good you should have at least 3 ranks tough.
You'll need to know what to dispel too. With much magic and shooting you can often nullify his raising, meaning you'll kill about equal or more than he can raise. The key spell to dispel is their movement spells. You absolutely cannot let them take away the mobility advantage DE have. So stopping the movement spell is absolutely essential to win.
So stopping their movement spells until you kill their general, then if you haven't taken too much casualties the game is practically won.