1500 pt list Vs Vampire Counts

[Jakey_Boi]

Relatively new to dark elves.

My mate has vampire counts and the last few times ive played him ive had a hard time winning. Ive changed my list around several times but before i play him again ill put a list ive been toying with up for you guys to look at and critise as you see fit.

Thanks

Hero -

Master - Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Ring of Hotek = 125 w/warriors

Core -

18 Black Ark Corsairs - Champ, Sea Serpent Standard = 225
20 Warriors - Champ, Muscian, Standard, Shields = 155
20 Warriors - Champ, Muscian, Standard, Shields = 155
5 Dark Riders - RxB = 110
5 Harpies = 55

Assassain - Extra Hand Weapon, Manbane, - 121

Special -

5 Cold One Kinghts - Champ, Standard Of Slaughter = 202
5 Cold One Knights - Champ = 151

Rare -

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers = 200


just as an additional note he usually fields a unit of black knights, a varghulf (?), a corpse cart, a unit of grave gaurd, 2 units of skeles an additonal vampire and konrad...

thanks again guys

[Astynax]

I've actually been mostly playing against VC since picking up DE and here's whats been working:

Units of 10 RxB Warriors - able to shoot an kill the masses of raised zombies very easily without repercussion and having to test for fear (DE have low-ish Ld especially without a dreadlord around)

Bolt throwers - have been worth their weight in gold. Volleys will annihilate the low toughness and low saves which the VC have. Single shots are also invaluable for blood knights, varghulf, vampires and corpse carts - being able to 1 shot them. ALWAYS TAKE THESE

Perhaps grab rending stars for the assassin as well to be able to greatly threaten the mounted units and varghulf. After you have been revealed, they can potentially avoid your assassin each turn. I wouldn't take the cloak since you don't have other magic which will take up his DD, and the cloak will then be dispelled.

Cold ones at this level should not be taken. They wont make their points back as the VC won't break and you'll have nothing to run down. Go for more units to get rank bonuses to win combat. Black guard are gold against VC.

Definitely give your hero a magic weapon, you need something to go up against his vampires and a basic weapon will not cut it.

Go for numbers and ranks vs VC at low points, not expensive elites who will get swamped.

[Jakey_Boi]

thanks for the heads up mate.

ill be playing him again soon so i will re write my list mayb tomorrow and post it up here.

that assassin sounds nasty.... rending stars =D

i always have trouble with his varghulf, regen is a pain in the butt but with the combined force of 2 bolt throwers and that assassin i might be able to take it down.

in terms of blocking his march as soon as possible what sort of tactic should i go for? i was contemplating just getting my harpies in behind his lines so that he would have to either move slower towards me (more turns to shoot) or have to turn one of his units around to take them on.

also whats an effective way to use dark riders. it a list which will have no other real fast movers would it be better to have them for the flank charge or sit back and shoot? or is it possible for them to fufil both rolls.

thanks again for the advice. as i said, adjusted army list up tomorrow or if i get time later tonight.

[Astynax]

I wouldn't use the bolt thrower to try to take down the Varghulf. With regen and high # of wounds it has a chance to walk away even after several turn of eating bolts.

I usually deal with it by putting some cheap warriors in its' way, then after it charges counter with the black guard. Include the tower master or a master with the crimson death and this will be the guy that'll drop the varghulf in a turn or 2 along with the other attacks. Since it doesn't have an armor save (regen only) using the bolt's ability to ignore armor is wasted. Your assassin should be able to do the same. Hit it with a few stars then finish it in combat.

Target the black knights and corpse cart first w the both throwers. If you're lucky you can 1 shot the corpse cart. Invocation can only bring back ONE black knight per turn as it is non infantry, so if you can volley down 2+ knights per turn (which is pretty easy) it will severely cripple them.

It also doesnt sound like he has much for casters, the ability to raise dead or magic defense. Consider stacking several of sorceresses. The black horror & soul stealer will annihilate those skellies very fast which will leave his vampires open for bolts and an early crumble if you can down the general.

What I've been doing is take 2 or 3 level 2 sorceresses, 2 units of 10 warriors with RxB and dual bolt throwers at less then 2k points. Sorceresses and warriors can take down zombie screens or units hiding characters first from magic & shooting. Bolts will then finish off knights, corpse carts or characters left without protection.


I don't think he'll pay much attention to the harpies. Theyre usually used moreso to tie up warmachine crews and prevent damage to your army than to deal major damage. I doubt they'll have much effect otherwise. If you do take them I would use them as a sacrificial unit to force Konrad to charge them when he rolls frenzy and counter with whatever you want.

Riders I'm not sure. I don't own any since theyre so expensive. I would try to set up a flank charge into a multiple combat with them though. VC units will take extra wounds be the difference they lose combat by - so you can really use this against them. Use your large blocks of spearmen to charge the GG & skellies at the same time if possible with minimal action against the GG. Focus on killing skeletons, flank the skeletons and get as many kills in as possible. What this will do is if you kill 10 skeletons for example, and lose 2 back yourself = win combat by 8 +1 for flank and +1 for standard, you have now just dealt 10 more wounds to the skeleton unit AND 10 wounds to the grave guard without even touching them. That's HUGE. It's a hard setup, but if you can pull it off its game breaking

[Jakey_Boi]

i might go through and do the block with warriors. that will at least tie him down for a turn, so long as i dont flee.

speaking of fleeing, have you found any effect ways of being able to succesfully charge into terror or even fear causing enemies. im finding that my units are fleeing an awful lot. could b something that i doing myself or just poor dice rolls. any suggestions?

he does seem to have 2 main casters as well as a necromancer. but they are larger ineffective. it is really just the occasional res. or the moving one (the name escapes me) which i really do hate. and my own magi really doesnt seem to be doing that well, what with all his DD and my terrible rolling. I usually take teh ring of hotek to deal with any close magic users but that only really works with his larger spells. any help here?

ok fair enough with the harpies but is there an alternative way to stop his troops marching across the bored and reaching me in so quickly?

well im going to have to really think tactically if i want to use the dark riders effectively. his varghulf usually targets them first cause they are the closest at the time. hmm... ill have to work on that.

thanks heaps man. you've given me alot to think about when i write this next list.

[Astynax]

Ya I've been having issues with global fear too. The pearl of infinite darkness is starting to look better and better but I haven't used one yet. This would work wonders with the large spearmen core and BSB. I think he would only have two terror units you may expect here - vampire w supernatural horror & Varghulf. Varg is a HUGE pain but with high assassin Ld and ItP on the black guard you can use them to take that out fairly reliably. Another reason why I'm using RxB warriors more since they won't have to test for fear in order to do damage.

As for the varghulf hitting the riders first - I usually take lots of range and sit back and shoot while he advances since VC have no shooting. That way if the varghulf tries to get in ASAP he'll be all alone.

I actually don't take the ring of hotek vs VC simply because the Vamp lore has low casting values so he'll unlikely use very many PD per spell. Also a lot of the spells are not ones which target your units so the protection of the ring is minimal. Even if you get within 12" he can just spam invocation with 1 die which has no chance of miscast.

If you want to try to stop his magic, consider the crystal of midnight and target Konrad or level 1 vamps/necro. Slightly more costly than the ring but will permanently stop some magic from turn 1 & on. Konrad has rediculously low Ld and will most likely be affected. Necro & vamps have the same Ld but still quite low too. Not only will the crystal deny something useful like IoN, raise dead or vanhels, but it'll give you more freedom with DD since he'll have 1 less spell to start the game. Check out Druchii.net -- View topic - Defending Against Enemy Magic -- the Druchii Way for magic D. its helped me lots! I usually let raise dead & invocation spells go off, dispel vanhels and scroll the higher 3 if needed. With a max of level 2 here and high cast values its pretty unlikely he'll try to use the higher 2 and waste PDs. 12+ on 3 dice is pretty hard to get

Bolt his mounted units, dispel vanhels & bait his varghulf in and his army will likely come peicemeal which is easier to deal with. It's pretty hard to outcombat his vampires without having a dreadlord, so use magic items which debuff him (scrolls, pearl, crystal) rather than gearing for combat and try to match up heroes - which is why I take sorcs over masters. Assassins would work wonders though since they wont stop you from taking those items as well.

No worries almost all of my games have been vs VC since i started playing FB unfortunately :/

[Jakey_Boi]

ok so taking into account what youve told me so far ive come up with this 1500 pt list.

Heros -

Sorceress - (lvl1), Crystal of Midnight, Dark Steed, (Lore of Shadow) = 147
Sorceress - (lvl1), Pearl of Infinite Bleakness, Dispel Scroll, (Lore of Shadow) - 150

Core -

18 Black Ark Corsairs - Champ, Sea Serpent Standard = 225
20 Warriors - Champ, Muscian, Standard, Shields = 155
10 Crossbowmen = 100
10 Crossbowmen = 100

Assassain - Extra Hand Weapon, Manbane, Rending Stars - 121

Special -

15 Black Guard - Champ, Standard of Hag Grief, dispel scroll - 283

Rare -

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers = 200

total - 1481

so the plan is to have the sorceress on the dark steed to stay behind the main line and cast 'steed of shadows' when necessary. the other sorceress goes in with the block of warriors.

the set up means that all 3 units of troops are ItP. im not sure which unit to stick the assassin in yet though.

im a little short on numbers but im hoping that with what ive got i can inflict enough casualties to win combat by enough to demolish his units that way.

ive gone with the lvl 1 sorceresses cause they r only there to add some dispel dice and give my army some options with 'steed of shadows'.

so what do you think?

[Astynax]

Looking really strong now - just a few things:

Ditch the dispel scroll on your Tower Master and give him the crimson death. This unit will then be the bane of his varghulf & corpse cart and able to kill each in a turn or 2. Just keep them away from black knights & grave guard since they have killing blow and could take them down fairly quick

I'm not sure what you would want steed of shadows for as it moves a character as if flying but I don't think you would want to get close if you're able to attack with range and take no fire back. If you wanted steed for your assassin you can just take the cloak of twilight to do so - he can still afford to take it with the current gear

I would upgrade both sorcs to level 2 and take the dark lore but I'm not sure where to get points from - the rest of the list is pretty solid. Bladewind, soul stealer and black horror will absolutely decimate his core units since they have VERY low WS & T.

I havent played much with other lores but if you were to look at all the default spells in the lores available metal might be the best pick at level 1 to snipe his characters or general. This will force him to use his DD to stop his general from dying which gives your assassin freedom to fly around and attack whatever you want.

Do you have a reason to take the dark steed? Sorcs don't do too well on their own especially w that varghulf flying around

[Jakey_Boi]

ah ive just re read through the lores and i must of got over excited and miss read the 'steed of shadows' rule. i thought it meant you could move the whole unit =S there goes that plan. but after looking through them again i might go with the lore of metal.

the lvl 1 spell casts on a 5+. it lets me single out any character in LOS and the strength of the spell increases as their armour save gets better. so on a 1+ armour save its a Strength 7 hit with no armour saves allowed.

the trick with dark lore is that sure i could take down his core units but the trick is if i can get rid of his vampires his army will crumble anyways.

and yes on second thought ill go with crimson death instead of the dispel scroll.

and well the reason behind the drak steed was to give her room ro move around and help units fly with 'steed of shadows' but that seems rather pointless now. so that means i have something like 31 points spare. if i take teh addition hw off the assassin i could upgrade a sorceress but is it worth it. all an additional lvl adds is a second spell no? and the assassin would surely need every bonus possible for maimum effectiveness.

so what do i use these additional points for? another magic item or go for a higher lvled sorcerss? or something else completly.

[Auere]

An assassin with manbane and rending stars costs 151 not 121.

That being said he is perfect for killing the warghulf. You do not need many turns of shooting to kill it, and if he is stupid enough to charge your assassin, you can stand and shoot and strike first with s6 afterwards, surely killling it off!

speaking of assassins - why not assassinate the vampire general? An assassin with rune of khaine and touch of death could earn you an easy victory!


Can you take dispell scrolls with unit champions? I didnt know that!