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Hey all here is the list I came up with, any C and C would be nice
Master - Soul Render, Pendant of Khaeleth, Heavy Armour and Sea Dragon Cloak 138pts
Sorceress 1 Lvl 2 and 2 Dispell Scrolls 185pts
Sorceress 2 Lvl 2 and Staff of Sorcery -170pts
Assassin Add Hand Weapon, Manbane and Rune of Khaine 146pts
20 Spear Elves Full Command and Shields 155pts
10 Xbow Elves 100pts
5 Dark Riders Xbows and Musician 117pts
6 Harpies 66pts
5 Cold One Knights Full Command 175pts
7 Shades Great weapons 108pts
13 Black Guard Full Command, Ring of Hotek and Banner of Hag Grief 264pts
2 RBTs 200pts
So General goes with Black Guard - (7x2 ranks) and the sorceress's float on the flanks and focus mainly on defence (quite a lot of magic heavy players where I am) and hopefully fire of the odd offensive spell, being careful not to get fried by RoH. Assassin Generally runs with Shades, but is flexible in my eyes. Everything else is fair self explanatory (at least in my opinion)
Thanks in advance
Hello I love seeing newer DE players!
Well I say lets start off with the characters! First with your Master, if you can't find the points to upgrade him to a lord, it isn't the end of the world, but it's def worth while.. Look what you get for 60 points. Weapon skill +1, Wounds +1, Intiative +1, Attacks +1 and LD +1. I think its worth while. If you cannot do this or choose not to then I reccomend just tossing the soul render for a halbred, will have a reason for this later on and saving 11 points.
For the 2 sorc, you can potentially have a decent offensive magic phase if you rework them. Dark star cloak on one and the sac dagger on the other if she is in a unit of spearmen. This is def optional, but something to think about if you want more killing power for the same points. Assassins are one of those hmm... 146 pts.. can he get those back?
For overall units, You need more blocks. You have good flankers but nothing to hold down the unit with. More blackgaurd for sure, and possibly another unit of spearmen would do nicely. Spearmen are super cheap and awesome!
Lets say we make a few changes and see what happens. Drop the assassin, the xbowmen, full command off the cold ones, drop 1 shade, lose 2 dispel scrolls and the staff of sorcery, drop soul render, drop standard of hag greif since your black gaurd have I6 they will strike first most of the time, drop 1 harpie.
point gain = 414
Now lets see what we can do! Upgrade our master for 60, give him crimson death since we dropped the hag grief standard. I find that standard is more for the executioners.
Add a unit of 24 spearmen + full CC with a sorc that had sac dagger. Add 6 blackgaurd and war banner. Add a darkstar cloak to other sorc. ok so I believe that adds up to 410.
Now lets compare! instead of 1 1/2 solid blocks, we now have 3! We lost a bit of shooting from the xbowmen, but we now have alot more offensive power at the cost of some spell defense.
We did lose the assassin, but I find our new upgraded general makes up for that. We still have our hydra and cold ones that can now be more effective on the flank from our upgraded blocks.
In my opinion overall, you gained more solid force, as your hitting power roughly stayed the same.
I see you are trying to have a magic phase, yet you include the ring of hotek? Not great synergy. I say make one of the wizards a lvl 4 somehow, and drop the ring. (+1 dispel dice, much more magic power)
Full command on CoKs is far too costly for benefits recieved since you aren't making use of their magic budget. Go with 5 naked for 40 less points.
Music on BG is kinda pointless. +1 to rally hardly comes up with ItP stubborn units. +1 CR in ties isn't important if you aren't going to move anyways. I would also give the champ crimson death since he becomes nearly as good as a master, and better than many human level heroes. (3 WS 5 hatred attacks at ASF and ST 6? um, yes please!)
I would make the assassin a rending star manbane assassin, and put him in the shades unit. Having big target/chariot busting power start from a scouting unit means you get tons of use out of the guy, and his unit is really quite deadly as well.
I would try a different master build, he doesn't need a pendant, since he is going in the BG, ASF and a GW is usually enough protection, plus the unit has a champ, and doesn't care if it loses to CR anyways.
Here is what I would run using your models instead:
SS: lvl 4, dagger ~ 285
sorceress: lvl 2, tome, scroll ~ 175
master: full mundane, GW, general ~ 94
assassin: extra hand weapon, manbane, rending stars (shades units) ~ 151
20 Spears: FC ~ 155
10 RxB ~ 100
5 DR: RxB ~ 110
6 harpies ~ 66
5 CoKs ~ 135
5 shades: GW ~ 90
13 BG: champ, banner, hag graef, crimson death ~ 257
RBT ~ 100
RBT ~ 100
War hydra ~ 175
Total ~ 2000
So with some simple modifications I added a potent magic phase, made the assassin more useful, got rid of expensive options on units that don't need it and only cost the list 2 bodies (the 2 shades I cut) and a scroll.
Although you say your opponents have a potent magic phase, I don't think that 5 dice and a scroll is too little protection. It certainly is enough where I play, even though I face 11+ dice VC and a few other heavy magic users. One of the best things to do against heavy magic is to bring heavy magic yourself. The SS if it gets its PoD spell off at max level can roll unreal amouns of dice. 3 wizard dice(post PoD cast) up to 4 PoD dice, up to 4 important spell stabs = 11 dice used from one wizard without dipping into the main pool and all spent on business spells. Add that to a lvl 2 that knows 3 spells and can throw her dice and the pools (and cast PoD) and you end up with one of the most powerful magic phases in the game for real cheap. (I've had magic phases where I rolled 17+ dice with just 2 wizards)
It's a fine enough list as is, although I'm surprised you passed on a Lord choice.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
Thanks for the comments guys. I wasn't thinking such sweeping changes Khamal, and that would also mean more outlay for me. I quite like some of the alterations notabot suggests, but I would worry about leaving my army's general with no magical attacks or decent armour/ward save. What happens when he is challenged? Even the champ is quite a few points...
I am thinking of dropping the assassin though, as said he is nearly 150pts, the same as the spear elves. Why would you drop the command on the CoKs? I'm assuming you mean I havn't given them a magic standard. Which one are you think? Slaughter?
I do quite like the idea of strong magic, even if it is somewhat risky, and if I'm taking a SS what do you guys think of the Black Staff? I'm not sure I want the dagger reducing my main anvil unit, and the army is fairly light on bodies as it is... Also is the lvl 4 upgrade always necessary? Could use the points for something else maybe? If she has access to two PoD its quite likely one will get cast so no need to worry about dice and with the lvl 2 having 3 spells should be plenty to choose from...
I'll answer your concerns with the list I proposed:
How many units/heroes actually care if you have magic attacks or not? There is a armor in WoC, wood elves forest spirits, and ethereal units. WoC is ONE characters, wood elves forests spirits have a weak ward save to begin with, and ethereal units are pretty much only in VC, and can be magiced to death to begin with.
Also, who cares if the general dies? DE have good enough LD.
The way I built him he gives up 194 points if he dies, and he is going to be in a unit that he can use ASF with a great weapon. So the number of characters in the same price range that can beat him are very few, and if you DO run into one, the champ can take the hit for a round while the master works over the unit. (and the champion with 3 attacks at S6 WS5 ASF always reroll misses can lay hero level hurt on other characters, and if you face a lord, oh well)
One of the big reason why the CD champ is good in BG, is the fact that he has armor busting power that is needed to take out many heroes or armored units. Quite often when you face things with a 3+ or better save, that you won't clear the front rank and will take damage in return, with 3 S6 attacks, he can clear half of it himself, and the general can get the other half.
I drop command on CoKs because it does nothing to further the role that cold ones do, yet costs an unreasonable 40 points. What is the net gain for 40 points? +1 attack, +1 SCR, and break ties and +1 to rally. SCR is not what knights are for. Knights are for combined charges (adding killing power) and flanking. SCR can be gotten elsewhere, or you can just kill enough models by making smart charges to make the knights worth their time. At 135 there is many units that knights can easily hit and get their points back plus some. At 175+ there isn't that many at all, since they are usually big blocks of tough SCR at that level, are hard to kill monsters/anvils. If you DO take command, take music only if you have left over points, take a champ only if you give him a magic item, and take a banner only if you are taking one of the 2 banners that is worth the time (cold blood and slaughter) Loading up on all 3 command, or just adding items with no clear goal doesn't make the unit hit much harder, but does make the unit worth more points to your opponent when it dies.
Black staff is a fine item, but it is both more expensive than the dagger, and less potentially powerful.
Warriors are no anvil unit unless you use the unbreakable BSB. Since you are not, they are NOT an anvil. What they are is a cheap source of SCR and powerdice.
A lvl 4 is of course worth it. An extra spell at DE prices is 15 points. An extra power dice is worth 25 points. The lvl 4 upgrade is 35 points. The more spells you have to choose from, the better. Especially since DE don't have issues with PD generation or using them in bulk.
Sure this army is a bit model light, but it still has 70 or so models, which is fine for elves. The biggest reason why it is model light has more to do with the rare slot being rather large than anything else. Stabbing warriors is no big deal, especially since they individually don't cost much, and in combat don't do much. The reason why they are a full SCR block is to discourage fliers and other small units from trying to assassinate the wizard. If it wasn't a full block, then there would be all sorts of fast units flying into her unit. Plus just because you can stab a guy with every spell, doesn't mean you should
The assassin is worth it, it gives you a very good combat character, and if you go with the manbane/stars build, gives you big target killing power that DE sometimes lack.