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  1. #1
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    2K List against Lizards

    HI,

    Have an up and coming game against a friends lizardmen army and he specifically wants to play my dark elves... Its been a while since I have played with my Dark Elves and have written up a list and am curious what people think about it...

    Lords

    Supreme Sorceress - Lvl 4, Tome of Furion, Ring of Hotek, Crystal of Midnight, Dispell Scroll

    Heroes

    Sorceress - Lvl 2, Darkstar Cloak, Dispell Scroll

    Sorceress - Lvl 2, Sacrificial Dagger, Dispell Scroll

    Master - Armour of Darkness, Crimson Death

    Core

    20 Spearmen, Shields, Full command

    10 Repeater Crossbowmen, Gulidmaster

    10 Repeater Crossbowmen

    5 Harpies

    Special

    14 Black Guard - Tower master, Standard

    5 Cold one Knights - Dread Knight, Standard

    5 Cold one Knights - Dread Knight, Standard

    Rare

    2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

    The plan is to have the black guard and the spearmen hold the centre of the battle line... while I will try to get the bolt throwers on each flank backed up with some crossbows. Also the 2 units of cold one knights will try to flank the opponent and the harpies are there to try to slow down and march block...

    I know that my friend will take a slann and a skink priest on Engine of the Gods... there will be a block of temple guard, a block of saurus, some skink skirmishers and some cold one cav...

    Any feedback or advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Cheers

    There is nothing more annoying when your Wyches with Plasma Grenades get "Always strikes First" for their combat drugs!

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkieth View Post
    HI,

    Have an up and coming game against a friends lizardmen army and he specifically wants to play my dark elves... Its been a while since I have played with my Dark Elves and have written up a list and am curious what people think about it...

    Lords

    Supreme Sorceress - Lvl 4, Tome of Furion, Ring of Hotek, Crystal of Midnight, Dispell Scroll
    I'll have to reread my book, but doesn't the ring of Hotek cause ANY SPELL (friend or foe INCLUDING the caster) be miscast on any double? If that is true, why on earth would you want it on your lv 4 Sorceress? That means her spells miscast on a double.

    Heroes

    Sorceress - Lvl 2, Darkstar Cloak, Dispell Scroll

    Sorceress - Lvl 2, Sacrificial Dagger, Dispell Scroll
    solid there, good choices.

    Master - Armour of Darkness, Crimson Death
    I'd consider dropping the Master for an Assassin. The Assassin can do some real damage against the LM.


    Core

    20 Spearmen, Shields, Full command

    10 Repeater Crossbowmen, Gulidmaster

    10 Repeater Crossbowmen

    5 Harpies
    Good choices. I assume the spearmen are there to be sacrificed by the Sorceress with the dagger, right? And if the enemy closes she leaves that unit for an X-Bow unit?

    Special

    14 Black Guard - Tower master, Standard
    If you are frugal with the points, by dropping the master above for the assassin, you might want to find points to give that Tower master a Null Stone, just for the extra MR if the enemy has a Slann. I know I sure would use one against you.
    5 Cold one Knights - Dread Knight, Standard

    5 Cold one Knights - Dread Knight, Standard

    Rare

    2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

    The plan is to have the black guard and the spearmen hold the centre of the battle line... while I will try to get the bolt throwers on each flank backed up with some crossbows. Also the 2 units of cold one knights will try to flank the opponent and the harpies are there to try to slow down and march block...

    I know that my friend will take a slann and a skink priest on Engine of the Gods... there will be a block of temple guard, a block of saurus, some skink skirmishers and some cold one cav...

    Any feedback or advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Cheers
    As good as Dark magic is, this might be a time to use Lore of Metal if he is really going to use Cold One Riders, an EOTG, Saurus Warriors AND Temple Guard. If the Sacrifical Dagger unit can use it to power her spells and avoid miscast, Metal has spells that can do some real damage vs the LM.

    If I were using the LM vs a magic strong DE army, it seems to me that you can't protect from magic via MR alone vs the Dark Elves, they just have ways of getting too many casting dice. However, the LM have disciplines and items and spells that can severely damage your magic phases without actually going into a DD vs CD war.

    For example, I would amongst the other 4 disciplines I would take, would include the one that gives all 6 spells/free casting die for every spell/MR 3/ the one that cancels out all 6's by one wizard on opposing army. I would also take the Army Standard for it with the one that causes Stupidity Tests on all enemy wizards within 18". By round 2 he will have you in range. Both the Stupidity Test and the one that cancels out 6's are done at the start of the enemy phase. So I would use the Stupidity one first and see which of your sorcerress fail. Chances are the LV 4 passes but it's not a guarantee and the LV 2 ones you can't be sure. As a result, you may lose one.....I'd then use the Slann's 'cancel out the sixes' on whatever one that survived but is more dangerous then the other. This greatly reduces the DE efficiency, which is their most important factor is that.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Intrepid's Avatar
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    Overall it's a decent, magic-heavy list. I have only a few suggestions on optimizing magic and making it a little more aggressive.

    GMJoeSolarte is right; no sorceress should ever have the Ring of Hotek, and in general the Ring is not a good choice for magic-heavy lists. In addition, I think the Staff of Darkness would be a better choice for the Supreme Sorc than the Tome. Against magic-heavy opponents, the ability to force a spell through their defenses is more important than having an extra choice.

    Since we're talking about opposing Lizards specifically, why not combine the two cavalry squads into one? I don't think a 5-man COK squad can reliably defeat the average Saurus block and Slaan magic won't have trouble doing a couple wounds to each unit before they can charge. By combining them, you can hope to outnumber* most blocks (and Stegadons!) and keep their charge-potential at full strength despite casualties, plus the unit champion's ability to take a Null Stone as GMJoe mentioned will go a long way towards keeping a big squad safe. This also allows you to use the Banner of Cold Blood to help mitigate stupidity for one critical turn (and be sure to describe it to your opponent, just for kicks!).

    Or at least issue them a War Banner. There's no good reason to have a COK squad with an ordinary banner in my book, since they either win on the charge or have serious trouble.

    I recommend giving the Master a Cold One and running him with the COKs. Kit him out for character assassination rather than durability; no Elf is going to last long against a Scar-Veteran. Consider the Chillblade, or a lance and Potion of Strength. I disagree with GMJoe about bringing an assassin instead; they tend to fail against heavily-armored targets. (One lizard hero in particular is an anti-assassin.)

    The Black Guard don't feel right in this list. Maybe a Chariot on the flank would be a better investment, seeing as how BG are slower and can have trouble against high-armor opponents?

    The sacrificial dagger doesn't feel right, either. It doesn't make sense to invest enough in Spearmen to make them into an effective SCR block, only to start killing them off yourself. Since their SCR will be valuable, I think a better option is turn the Dagger Sorc into a scroll caddy (or with a Seal of Ghrond) and simply have him cast PoD if he needs more energy. It's less reliable, granted, but it'll keep the Warriors at a useful model count and, again, your real issue here will be forcing magic past the Slaan rather than minimizing miscasts.


    As far as lore choice goes, absolutely stick with Dark Magic. Chillwind is the best Skink Stopper in WHFB, Word of Pain is invaluable should your units ever bog down in combat and the top-level spell (I forget its name and always call it 'pocket nuke') is most satisfying against blocks of anything.

    Bring us some lizard hides!


    *One Slaan discipline (or magic item, I forget which) makes the frog invulnerable to all mundane attacks. Having a speedy unit with a standard that can outnumber/SCR the Slaan is the best way to defeat this.
    "My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard

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    well when it comes to the Master vs Assassin debate, remember that the Assassin I see it as a back stop vs a unit that may get charged. For example, if the EOTG were to charge, you could use the assassin to eliminate the Priest right then and there and stop the EOTG. Also, if the LM is going magic-heavy, again, you are not going to see a oldblood or scar veteran in all likelihood.

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    Thanks for the feedback it has helped a lot. I don't know what I was thinking about when I gave the ring of Hotec to the Sorceress... Please find a revised list.

    Lords

    Supreme Sorceress - Lvl 4, Tome of Furion, Crystal of Midnight, Dispell Scroll

    Heroes

    Sorceress - Lvl 2, Darkstar Cloak, Dispell Scroll

    Sorceress - Lvl 2, Dispell Scroll X 2

    Master - Cold one, Heavy Armour, shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Caledor's Bane
    Core

    20 Spearmen, Shields, Full command

    10 Repeater Crossbowmen, Gulidmaster

    10 Repeater Crossbowmen

    5 Harpies

    Special

    10 Cold one Knights - Dread Knight, Standard, Banner of Murder, Null Talisman

    Rare

    2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

    Decided to drop out the black guard for the time being here. Have combined the COK into one unit giving them the banner of murder and a null talisman. I find that the banner of Murder seems to sound nice with them as by having the Armour piercing rule, gives them a nice -4 to armour saves on the charge that should even dislodge most things... as well as this the cold ones and knights not on the charge are still giving the opponent a -2 to armour.

    Have also decided to take a master on a cold one and gave him Caledor's Bane... which I thought would work well and I would hope would give even a sarus hero a bit of a scare on the charge.

    Looking at this I still have 213 points left to play with... Does anyone have suggestions about what to put into the list. I had a few ideas about what to throw in there.
    1. A unit of 15 Black Guard with Tower master and Standard (or swap standard out for a null stone) this does give me a nice block of infantry to back up the spearmen as such.
    2. A chariot and an assassin. This gives me something fast moving and somewhat hard hitting that can follow the COKs and an assassin to surprise him in a unit.
    3. A third unit of Crossbowmen and assassin. This just gives me some extra firepower to try and dwindle numbers.

    Part of me is telling me though that I need something else which can be as hard hitting as the knights or close to. I think in a way that is why I don't mind the idea of having Black guard. Also have thought about executioners...

    If people have some other ideas please let me know. Cheers
    There is nothing more annoying when your Wyches with Plasma Grenades get "Always strikes First" for their combat drugs!

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    vs Lizardmen, and if he is TRUELY bringing huge blocks of Saurus and Temple Guards and an EOTG.......

    1) Lore of Metal. Vs Saurus Warriors they hit at S4 with both the first and sixth spell on the list. Vs TG they do S5....if you can get spell #6 on that list, you can really rock the Lm. And your doing S6 vs the EOTG also. Even if you don't get spell #6, you can still auto take #1 if you don't get what you want out of it.

    2) I'd consider going with a combo of Executioners and the banner that gives them the abillity to strike first.....if you can get that, then they will be more effective with killing blows vs the Saurus and TG and even if they get charged by the cold one riders or EOTG.

    3) I have found assassins can work well vs LM. If you can take out the priest on an EOTG that takes a lot out of his punching power. If you use the right gifts of kaine, you can possibly take out everything short of a slann.

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    OK, so there's a lot here that can be addressed. First off, the sac. dagger is best on the lord caster. I see no problem in stabbing a unit of 20 warriors if they are fuelling powerful spells. Just don't give the warriors command. Think of it as 7 points for an extra PD, pretty good bargain I'd say. Anyway, BG are great and I see no issue in using them as long as you give them the ASF banner. Execs are worthless and BG with ASF are great. Throw in the crimson death and we're in business. 14 with a 7x2 set up and the banner and crimson death will take anything your opponent sends at you and spit it back. especially with the stubborn. Also 10 CoK's waiting to go stupid is not fun, and the difference between -3 and -4 is negligable. I like them as 5 bare for cheap shocktroops or as 6 or 7 with some upgrades as a hammer. Don't rely on them too much. I'd reccomend a Hydra really if you can fit it. There's also an excess of command here too.

    Sorry this is a wall of text and there's probably a lot of rushed over stuff, but I don't have much time right now. Hopefully someone else can clarify or I can when I get the chance.

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    Here is a slightly revised list... drop the unit size of the CoKs and threw in a unit of 16 black guard, should give me a good anvil unit with the spearmen that hit a bit harder and better as well as the CoKs still large enough to be a shock hammer unit...


    Lords

    Supreme Sorceress - Lvl 4, Tome of Furion, Crystal of Midnight, Dispell Scroll

    Heroes

    Sorceress - Lvl 2, Darkstar Cloak, Dispell Scroll

    Sorceress - Lvl 2, Dispell Scroll X 2

    Master - Cold one, Heavy Armour, shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Caledor's Bane
    Core

    20 Spearmen, Shields, Lordling, Standard

    10 Repeater Crossbowmen, Gulidmaster

    10 Repeater Crossbowmen

    5 Harpies

    Special

    7 Cold one Knights - Dread Knight, Standard, Banner of Murder, Null Talisman

    16 Black Guard - Tower master - Crimson Death, Standard - Standrard of Hag Graef

    Rare

    2 Reaper Bolt Throwers
    There is nothing more annoying when your Wyches with Plasma Grenades get "Always strikes First" for their combat drugs!

  10. #9
    Senior Member JeremyKyle's Avatar
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    I would try get atleast 1 hydra in there, also black staff would be good with this kind of list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GMJoeSolarte View Post
    vs Lizardmen, and if he is TRUELY bringing huge blocks of Saurus and Temple Guards and an EOTG.......

    1) Lore of Metal. Vs Saurus Warriors they hit at S4 with both the first and sixth spell on the list. Vs TG they do S5....if you can get spell #6 on that list, you can really rock the Lm. And your doing S6 vs the EOTG also. Even if you don't get spell #6, you can still auto take #1 if you don't get what you want out of it.

    2) I'd consider going with a combo of Executioners and the banner that gives them the abillity to strike first.....if you can get that, then they will be more effective with killing blows vs the Saurus and TG and even if they get charged by the cold one riders or EOTG.

    3) I have found assassins can work well vs LM. If you can take out the priest on an EOTG that takes a lot out of his punching power. If you use the right gifts of kaine, you can possibly take out everything short of a slann.
    I personally would just take dark magic against lizards, since lore of metal has very few spells that matter. Number one is just one wound and one target, not as great vs lizards as people think. Number 6, while strong, isn't a spell you always get with the wizard you want to have it. Lore of dark magic has 5 spells that are pure offense, and another spell that is just really strong in the right situation. So you have all those dice going into offensive power, as oppossed to just a few spells that must be stopped, and the rest that can be ignored. (and lizards have very good magic defense if they choose).

    A unit of executioners with ASF sounds good in theory. But that is before you realize that the unit can't just take a normal banner upgrade and do it. It must use a BSB. Not that big a problem right? The unit is khainite, so you can't use a master for this. Well there is a death hag right? She has frenzy, and they unit doesn't. She also has no armor and is T3. Good thing lizards have no disposable units that can bait out obvious frenzy units and also do hatred baiting... oh wait, skinks and terradons are used almost exclusively at this role. Well, executioners are still good right? Um t3, 5+ save, strikes last, and only a single attack? They are on foot so can't even ensure the charge against other foot units? Why would anyone take them, let alone spend 150+ points to potentially make them useful when you can just take other units that actually can do things, like BG, and CoKs. Heck if you just want KB, a cauldron backing up witches is much better.

    Assassins are good, But against lizards, I prefer the rending stars manbane. At S= t+2 (max S7) and hits on 2s, it can bring down a steggadon pretty easily. It needs a shade excort unit to scout with, but it really is quite solid. Personally I've found CC against lizards something to be avoided untill very late game. Just too tough to kill all of them, and elves are too squishy.

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