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  1. #1
    stupidity just kicked in! zhaf's Avatar
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    8th ed 2250pts magic/shootly fun

    Oh boy it has been a while since I have played warhammer... but with 8th ed just releaseing I couldn't help myself. So I picked up the new rulebook and did some paperhamer .

    This is a mockup 2250pts army focusing on magic and shooting. I haven't given it much thought I guess but I hope it will work out anyway. So here goes nothing!

    LORDS :: 25%=562,5pts

    Supreme sorceress :: lvl4 :: Pegasus :: Pendand of Khaeleth :: Black Staff :: 400pts

    HEROES :: 25%=562,5pts

    Sorceress :: Dark Steed :: Ruby Ring of Ruin :: Dark Star Cloak :: 162pts

    Sorceress :: Dark Steed :: Feedback Scroll :: 162pts

    CORE :: 25%=562,5pts

    Crossbowmen :: x14 :: Shields :: Guardmaster :: 159pts

    Crossbowmen :: x14 :: Shields :: 154pts

    Dark Riders :: x10 :: Crossbows :: Musician :: 227pts

    Dark Riders :: x10 :: Crossbows :: Musician :: 227pts

    SPECIAL :: 50%=1125pts

    Black Guard :: x20 :: Full Command :: Standard of Discipline :: The Terrifying Mask of EEE! :: 335pts

    Executioners :: x15 :: Musician :: Standard :: Banner of Murder :: 223pts

    RARE :: 25%=562,5pts

    Reaper Boltthrowers :: x2 :: XXXpts

    TOTAL :: 2249pts


    The lvl4 flies solo and the lvl1s goes with each dark rider unit. If facing more horde armies I go with Lore of Fire and just spam fireballs, I should be able to get 4 fireballs each magic phase with the bound spell. With Black Staff I can cast PoD twice with the lvl4, and the extra power dice from Dark Star Cloak goes to the bound spell. For more heavy armies go with Lore of Iron or if I want to buff my shooting I go with Lore of Shadows. If I ever get low on power dice just cast more PoD, as I can get it of 4 times each magic phase. And I'll use the Feedback Scroll to nuke a enemy wizard.
    And with the huge amount of shooting. Enemies should be all softened up when they reach the Black Guard unit that is stubborn on Ld10 and cause Terror *oh yeah*, thinking that if the enemy runs away or reduce their WS to 1 will give my Black Guard more survivability than a few S6 hits from the Crimson Death. And the Executioners should be flanking and hopefully breaking whatever that is left. I did think of Shades instead of Executioners for the extra shooting but skirmishers seems less useful this edition.
    Of cause I haven't thought of what will happen when I miscast or if the enemy uses the Feedback Scroll on me. Hoping it will happen to my lvl4 so that the Ward Saves will keep her alive, miscast S10 hits is no problem for the pendant ^^. And I know I don't have the massive horde block that is really really useful this edition but I want to try this out.

    Well this was really the first idea that came to me. So I really hope it will word as it sounds very fun to play. So what do you, that play this game way more that me, think of it? Critique away!

    Edit: Added %=pts on the diffrent choices... and made it more pretty ^^

    Last edited by zhaf; July 26th, 2010 at 03:01.
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  3. #2
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    Oh boy it has been a while since I have played warhammer... but with 8th ed just releaseing I couldn't help myself. So I picked up the new rulebook and did some paperhamer .
    Hey Zhaf, good to see you back on board for 8th.

    LORDS :: 25%=562,5pts

    Supreme sorceress :: lvl4 :: Pegasus :: Pendand of Khaeleth :: Black Staff :: 400pts
    Not a fan of the Black Staff for the fact that it costs a lot of points, and we have the ability to cast it normally anyway.
    With 8th ed and failed casting attempts, we cant really afford to throw 1 dice at PoD anymore (unless it's your last PD), but you can still throw 2 dice at it, which will rarely fail to cast a 4+
    You have a 33% chance of getting the same amount of dice back (2), no loss.. and a 66% chance of getting more (3-4).

    HEROES :: 25%=562,5pts
    Star Cloak
    Sorceress :: Dark Steed :: Ruby Ring of Ruin :: Dark :: 162pts
    Sorceress :: Dark Steed :: Feedback Scroll :: 162pts
    It's worth making them level 2.
    Crystal of midnight + tome of furion is probably better than feedback scroll (if you agree to make her level 2)
    Otherwise you're really spending the full cost of a wizard just for a chance to kill.. a wizard.

    It's worth noting that the ring will always cast the lowest level fireball.

    Also you need to specify on your list which magic lores they are using. Which means no waiting to see your opponent and choosing on the day.

    Crossbowmen :: x14 :: Shields :: Guardmaster :: 159pts
    Crossbowmen :: x14 :: Shields :: 154pts
    Unit of 20 with shields and musician would be ideal. 14 is more than a cheap throw away 10-block, and not enough to reform into a decent combat unit like a 20-block

    Dark Riders :: x10 :: Crossbows :: Musician :: 227pts
    Dark Riders :: x10 :: Crossbows :: Musician :: 227pts
    I still prefer units of 5, for the fact that 10 is rather expensive and if you lose even 1 of them to shooting/magic, they still wont be able to negate ranks when flanking.
    They're gonna lose their Fast Cav rules with Sorceresses joining them too.

    SPECIAL :: 50%=1125pts
    Black Guard :: x20 :: Full Command :: Standard of Discipline :: The Terrifying Mask of EEE! :: 335pts
    They dont really need +1Ld, and theyre already immune to psych so they gain nothing from mask in terms of not taking fear/terror tests. its nice to CAUSE terror but yeah they gain less from the mask than other troops might.
    Banner of Hag Graef and Crimson Death is the fashionable set up for these guys at the moment.

    Executioners :: x15 :: Musician :: Standard :: Banner of Murder :: 223pts
    Hmm 15, they will probably lose 1 or 2 to shooting and not get that second rank bonus anyway. and 5 wide you're getting less attacks.. maybe 14 in 7x2 ?
    Also at S6 + killing blow, they dont really need armour piercing. Maybe a War Banner to offset their static combat res weakness?

    RARE :: 25%=562,5pts
    Reaper Boltthrowers :: x2 :: XXXpts
    Ok. War Hydras rock now, but you're probably in the same boat as me (already have the RBTs and dont want to buy/build/paint a Hydra!)

    Cheers
    Last edited by Manu_Forti; July 26th, 2010 at 11:40.
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
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  4. #3
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    one thing to note in this edition is that with 3mages your gonna need alot of dice which u can get with power of darkness but you may not be able to cast all of your spells in a turn plus the fact that u gotta use power dice to use bound spells too and if you fail on them your done casting so id save them to last if possible if your using the staff i mean.but winds of magic can and will roll low and the fact that your gonna always want to roll more dice so u dont miss the casting values means alot more miscast chances plus less dice to go around too lol .but if u get rid of all the magic items/banners u have and do what manu said above with the crossbow men and just did 2 units of 5 dark riders u will have freed up 488 points of which u could give the lvl 4 the tome of furon to get all the spells u want in a lore or u could try the 70 point book of ashur +1 to cast and +1 to dispel attempts.then u could get a nice big block of spear elves 25-30 with warbanner and beef up the executioners to 20 with enough left over for a hydra or dispell scoll,darkstar cloak,seal of ghrond,focus familiar of any of these more reliable magic items on your wizards. hope this helps some
    Last edited by affliction69; July 26th, 2010 at 12:13.

  5. #4
    stupidity just kicked in! zhaf's Avatar
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    Hi guys... I don't think you get me. I don't want to play the way I did before and I want to play with a lot of magic and shooting. So given that the advice you guys gave me is to make my army less magic and more combat isn't really helping ok. And I am fully aware that magic is a huge risk factor in 8th.

    I don't think you get my thinking of magic. I don't really need more spells, all I need is fireball and a heap of PD to cast its more powerful variants. Since Lore of Fire gets you +1D3 to cast a fire spell on the same target that has already been targeted by previous fire spells, it'll help me on the way. I can throw a single die on the bound wand for example, even if it is the lowest level I can still get damage of one die. I know that I 'basically' have to throw 2 dice for PoD but the I still get 66% chance to get more PD back and with the Black Staff I can cast PoD twice with the same sorceress meaning even more PD. And I really think that the Feedback Scroll is one of the most powerful arcane items, if a wizard ever throws 4+ dice a spell that wizard is going to take a lot of wounds possibly be killed in the process. That makes the opponent think twice before attempting to cast the bigger spells. And what's the advantage of making the heroes lvl2? They just gain 1 more spell right? But all I need is fireball.

    On to the Core... crossbowmen, yeah I know 20 is better than 14... but I'm out of pts . The thing on Dark Steeds, I ran them in 5s since 6th ed so I know how effective they are. But now then can shoot in 2 ranks and need 2 ranks to neglect. Yes I know if I loose 2 guys I can't neglect ranks. But with the amount of shooting and magic I have I am hoping that my enemy shoots on other things or just don't have enough shooting left (wishful thinking I know... but seeing the importance of big rank-and-file units and combat now I am hoping to see less shooting from other armies). I know it is an inferior Core but I want to try it out.

    Specials. On the Black Guard I don't think that ASF is a big deal anymore for elves since combat is on I:order even on charges. Yeah I looses to HE, but strikes at the same time with WE, DE, Daemonettes and Chaos Warriors (lets face it no one uses them... Chaos mortals only use Marauders), and all of them are squishy low T units that are vulnerable to shooting. And with Terror (I think Terror is useful now considering how much combat there are going to be, and Terror is basically the old Fear, it's going to rock.) they have to take a Ld check just to charge the unit. If they fail they drop to WS1 and run away... that's better than ASF if you ask me. And for the Ld10 I just want to make sure they won't fail morale... basically +1Ld was cheaper than a BSB. I know they are ItP I have been playing them since 5th ed.
    Same thing with the Executioners and Banner of Murder... I want to make sure that I kill the stuff I wound. There will be a lot of fairly big blocks of knight units with 1+/2+ AS so I really want to make sure that I kill them when I wound. And I didn't say that I'll run them in 5s... It just happen that I have 15 models... then if I run them in 6s o 7s doesn't really matter since I have a musician, so I can make free reforms.

    Rare. No I have a hydra model... I just wanted more shooting.

    Thanks for the advice anyway... I just wanted advice more suited to what I was trying to do, not to change my play style ...
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  6. #5
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    Actually, they get +1 cast and dispel as well for being level 2. And I'd put banner of murder on the BG's instead of hag graef, seeing as BG are already I 6 and allowed to reroll to hit anyway. If you insist on the black staff, you can just throw one dice at it, seeing as bound spells don't cause loss of concentration if you don't make the casting roll. You don't add your level to bound spells though. Also bear in mind that you need to wipe out a character/unit to get VP's for it

    As for the part on the chaos warriors bit? I think you're very much mistaken there, pop into the chaos warriors army list section and have a look at what people are fielding. A warrior with mark of Tzeentch and a hw/shiled is Ws5, S and T 4, 2 attacks, 3+ armour save and 5+ ward save in cc.....but that's a bit off topic. And yes, I play WoC as well as DE

  7. #6
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    I wouldn’t say I tried to change your play style, most of my feedback is just tweaking your unit/item/command set up without really changing your overall list.

    I don’t know why people post lists for review when they aren’t open to suggestions.
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
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  8. #7
    stupidity just kicked in! zhaf's Avatar
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    See Manu I don't think you get why I post my list here. I have nor said that I wanted advice to build my army right? I posted a complete armylist and I've said that I am happy with it and I want to try it out. And the first thing you tell me is to change this and that. And I'm ok with you saying that, I said it wasn't really the stuff I wanted and I thanked you for trying, sorry forgetting to thank you for your "welcome back greeting". And you reply with the way you do... don't get salty. Your advice isn't always what people want. It's just a game... so don't get salty.

    What I mean by "advice" (I really thought you guys knew what I meant) is to help me make my build work. I play enough competitive video games to know that nothing is impossible, meaning I don't HAVE to play a certain way or build the "right" units to beat a better unit. And what I need help with here (since I haven't played for about a year and it's a new edition on top of that) is for you, the more experienced players, to look at my build and think of what can give me trouble and in what way I can beat it with my existing army or with very few minor tweaks.
    For example in Starcraft 2 (one game I can relate to... don't know if you guys can though). I play Terran and go Marine, Ghost, Medivac against Protoss. One hard counter is if Protoss goes Templar (with storm and feedback), Zealot. A good advice would be to keep the Ghost in the Medivacs so in that way feedback won't affect them. And the most important thing is to scout more and learn to dodge the Templars Storm. You see good advice without changing even the slightest of how i played or even what units I was using.

    This should apply to Warhammer too. For example what Zarb said about Mark of Tzeentch Warriors (now I don't know if they will be a problem since Zarb only pointed out that they are pretty mean). Before Zarb said anything I was ignorant and thought that I would never see a Chaos Warrior on the field, now at least I know that Chaos Mortals players strongly consider them. If you're going to recommend something, then put some weight behind your reasoning. Say you recommend ASF Banner... because (pulling stuff out of my ass right now because I just want to set an example) the HE numbers are really growing and I will probably face a lot of them. And most Chaos players, the second most common army, favors heavily on Chosen Chaos knights and they will strike before DE and steamroll my Black Guard. Then yeah of cause I'll consider it.

    I can go on and on with more and more examples, but I think you all get what kind of advice I want.
    ... so socialize and learn and don't get salty when you are wrong.


    And to all of you who says TLDR... I feel you... but read it. It's a good read. You can whine about it later if you don't agree .
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  9. #8
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
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  10. #9
    Senior Member Romulus's Avatar
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    Not changing your list, but changing your line up a little. I've been thinking of a new idea that I've not seen anyone mention.

    Run your 20 Dark Riders is 4 units of 5 with my idea having them 3 wide and 2 deep. Your shooting is the same and you loose 2 horse attacks if you charge. I'm actually thinking of doing all my Heavy knights that way. If you think about it there are many advantages. Narrows your frontage to reduce return hits against you, narrows your profile to squeeze thru tight spots and u only loose 2 horse attacks. The big thing is reducing the number of attacks your enemy can do against you for loss of a mere 2 mount attacks (3 wide and 2 deep).

    Strategy wise...... obviously, keep your distance where all possible. I would run your executioners and Black Guard behind and to the sides of the rxBows. In such a way as when they are charged you can like an X cross charge the flanks of the enemy chargers. This allows the RxBows free and open fields of fire along with Stand-and-Shoot.

    There is not much more you can do.....move.... maneuver...shoot.......BG & Exec hammer a unit. Tricks.....if things get tight with RxBows. March past the enemy then move Exec & BG into their faces. With the X (Cross strategy).....RxBows cross charge into flanks then BG/Exec hits frontage.



    Thinking about this strategy.....consider 2 units of BG dropping Execs.
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