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Came up with an idea for a 2000 pts list for DE, mainly focussing on getting some of the models I like the best in my list, while still maintaining a viable and competitive aspect.
I really like the new black dragon model, hydras and also the cold one models so I've tried to include these at the best of my ability
Dreadlord mounted on black dragon, Ring of Hotek, lance, Heavy armour, shield - 500 pts (Army General)
Sorceress lvl 2, lore of shadows, tome of furion - 150 pts
Master, mounted on cold one, BSB, cloak, heavy armor, charmed shield, lance - 142 pts
30 Warriors, standard, musician (5 wide, 6 deep) - 219 pts
30 Warriors, standard, musician (5 wide, 6 deep) - 219 pts
10 Crossbowmen, musician (5 wide, 2 deep) - 105 pts
9 Cold ones, musician, standard bearer with rangers banner - 312 pts
War Hydra - 175 pts
War Hydra - 175 pts
Total: 1997 pts
Sorceress joins crossbowmen, master joins cold ones. Would really have loved to put more points into my lord, but unfortunatly that would bring him above the 25% His main purpose is to wreak
havoc among my opponents back lines, while trying to deny enemy spellcasting with ring of hotek. Should be able to mess up his spellcasting in my first turn due to the speed of my black dragon
and range of ring. My Warriors form the anvil of my army (5 wide, 6 deep, since I want them to be steadfast instead of getting extra attacks) Crossbowmen are mainly there to provide
cover for my sorceress and add just a tiny bit of ranged fire support (I want my sorceress far far away from my dreadlord in my first magic phase, so I thought that this unit was the best to do the job).
Cold ones have rangers banner and a bsb (only 0,6% chance of failing stupidity with LD 9 rerolls) and swiftstrider rule should help them be a unit I can count on.
The basic idea is to have warriors form an impenetrable centre, hydras on each flank as hammer units, black dragon and cold ones on opposite extreme flanks (hope you understand this). This basically
means that half my army is in range of my general with LD 10, and the other half is in range of my BSB (which should give an overall LD boost to my army)
My personal views of the army
Strengths: Speed, ability to easily deny enemy spellcasting, lots of hammer units
Weaknesses: almost no ranged units, only lvl 2 wizard, siege weapons can focus fire dragon
You can't have it all, would like bolt throwers, but like my hydras too much and can't get a lvl 4 sorceress without losing my dragon.
If you've got comments or suggestions for changes, you're most welcome
Your main problem is that you're looking at Dark Elves like they're a Tomb King or WoC army by thinking of them in terms of hammer and anvil.
Dark Elf Warriors cannot form true anvils (toughness 3 and a ^+e says it all), in fact, due to our toughness of 3 and abysmal armour we don't have any real anvils.
Hammers, as you found, we have plenty of. Unfortunatley, in your list they all take the form of cavalry and monsters, making them easy targets for enemy artillery, missile troops and mages. Against the latter you do have the Ring of Hotek, but as your lord will be flying around behind the enemy lines, unless he gets within 12" of a mage, he won't be using the ring to its full effect (and even then it doesn't automatically cause miscasts).
What I see will happen here is that your blocks of warriors will be ignored, whilst the juicy targets such as Hydras and Knights will be picked off, then, once your support is gone, the warrior blocks will be taken out in turn.
I think that whilst it's possibly one of the best models in our range, you'll need to drop the Black Dragon for a more conventional mount. Think about it, with those points you could virtually buy another unit of Black Guard. As for the Master, as he's the BSB he can't take a shield, although even without the charmed shield he still has a 2+ save. Perhaps getting him the Hydra Banner so that your Cold One Knights can hit harder on the charge might be a good idea. Next, drop a block of warriors and invest in shields for the other one, run them 6x5 (you'll need the attacks) and get some more crossbowmen with shields (about 20 at least) then, invest in some of our specialist units, Corsairs are brilliant for cutting through massed hordes of low quality infantry such as Night Goblins and Skavenslaves, Excecutioners are brilliant on the flanks, using your warriors' combat resolution bonuses and their high-quality attacks to tip combats in your favour. Black Guard will hack apart most other elite and non elite infantry and still stare down a dragon even if you've just got the Tower Master left.
Hydras are good, nothing wrong there.
I hope this helps and I'm not being too harsh.
"Take their gold, burn their homes, kill their familes and enslave their souls. Show them no mercy...oh and could you post these letters while you're out?"
-Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth.
I'd save the Dragon for a minimum of 2500pts. Plus give him a ward save instead of the Ring of Hotek. The Ring is best put on a Master with full mundane and mounted on Pegasus, as he's small enough to hide and avoid enemy fire.
of course you're not being too harsh Forgot to mention that Warriors actualy already got sheilds, which is why they come at 219 pts for 30 with standard and musician. Forgot about the shield on BSB, but havn't got the points for hydras banner. Without the sheild I've got 8 pts left over. So what to drop? My list is also taking a minimum amount of core choices, so I can't actualy drop a unit of warriors, sadly. Would indeed have liked some executioners or black guard! I see your point in the fact that ALL my hammers are monsters or cav, but the way I see it, it's the only way I want a hammer unit to be. If they're not relatively fast I can't make them do what I want (double pincer moves, outflank, spearhead, etc.) This is also why I actualy got 3 monsters and 1 cav unit so I'm sure at least some of them will survive. My Warriors will probably be ignored, but the fact of the matter is that If I can charge my enemy (sounds stupid with spears, yes) I can basically use to tie my opponent up in combat (they've got plenty of ranks, so they should be steadfast). Could swap a unit of warriors for corsairs though, that suits me fine.
I see why you guys don't like a dragon in such small point games, but the fact is I still think he's functionally with his current gear. Even better, wouldn't you be scared to see a Dragon be fielded in 2000 pts games? If my opponent focuses it, then it's probably even better, since he still have hydras, cav and mass infantry coming his way. I don't reckon it's hard to keep the dragon within 12" of the enemy caster (dragon might as well go for the wizard unit first, and he can't do much about it).
In the beginning I wrote that it was a themed list that I tried to make functional (the thing that made me start DE was the cold one, dragon and hydra units). I really appreciate your help though. Some nice ideas there. But all in all what should I change without changing the foundation stone of my army? ... 1 warrior block for 6x3 corsairs? try to get a hydras banner in my cold ones unit?
Eventhough the list might not be perfect, don't you reckon it will be a scary army never the less??
Again, thanks for your reply! I appreciate it.
It isn't hard to keep the Dragon with 12" of the caster. Putting him within 12" of the caster and avoiding getting shot, blasted by magic or charged is a lot harder than it first appears. Without a ward save, the Dreadlord is likely to die most of the time, thus losing the benefits of the Ring of Hotek and your General in one swoop. Plus in <2K there are plenty of things that will kill him easily: Cannons, Stone Throwers, Bolt Throwers, Searing Doom, Gehanna's Golden Hounds will deprive him of his 3+ Armour, killing him and possibly even the Dragon (Searing Doom can kill Hydra's easily too). Even Pit of Shades, Purple Sun and Final Transmutation can give him pause for thought. Sure, he fails Initiative tests only on a 6 but the Dragon doesn't. And never underestimate your opponents ability to roll a 6 to turn someone into gold. A Dragon simply isn't as scary as it used to. It's not a question of not liking a Dragon in small points games, it's a question of effectiveness.
You're also suggesting being within 12" of his spellcasters first turn. I'm guessing that means you're suggesting flying straight at his army from the front (which you'd need to be to do it first turn)? That's also suggesting he'll have all his Wizards clumped together within 6" of each other and within 32" of your Dragon. From what I've read and interpreted you're suggesting parking a 500pt Dreadlord on Dragon with the Ring of Hotek in front of the enemy army first turn, hoping that a Wizard is going to be within 12", hope your opponent ignores the massive fire breathing monster to concentrate on the rest of your army then praying he casts with that Wizard and manages to roll a double, thus miscasting. I hate to rain on your parade and be as harsh/critical as this but it's not likely to work out. Note: that was just guess-work based on what you've written. It's probably not even right.
The rest of the army is fine, it's just the Dragon is too much of a points-sink and too impractical at 2000pts. Even at 2500pts it's hard to justify. 3k is really where it's acceptable to have a Dragon, as you can fill up the rest of you're army to compensate incase the Dragon snuff it. At 2.5k and under it's just too many points on one thing to risk (I'll admit I'm being a hypocrite here, at 1500pts I tend to take Hellebron and a Horde of 49 Witch Elves = 900pts. But they've paid for themselves time and time again, haven't lost at 1500pts with them yet). It is a fantastic model and Dragons are just awesome full stop, but it isn't competitive at 2000pts. I have taken a Dragon at 2.5 and a Manticore at 1.5, but those were in fun lists (coincidently the Manticore was a BSB with my Witches, it's a CRAZY list).
The point of this rambling is this;
If you want it to be fun and just have a laugh without caring about winning or losing, take the Dragon. If you want to be competitive and win, don't take the Dragon.
Last edited by Ravenblade; August 2nd, 2011 at 01:02.
just had a thought but cant the champion in the cold one's take the ring of hotek
cant see much point in ur lord at 2k tbh and your units look way too small, like whats the point of 10 crossbow men
drop the crossbow men and take 2 units of 30 corsairs instead (it also goes fluff wise as you cld use the black dragon as a sea dragon and with the hydra's etc it wld all fit in and look nice)
u need to fix your lord though
give him the ring of hotex, armour of darkness, soul render, and we will be awsome as right now i wld gladly suffer a miscast to infernal gateway him off the table
10 Crossbowmen are actually good. They work well as "detachments", distracting enemy fire or setting up on the flanks of the army to deter Fast Cavalry and Scouts. Although my HE and DE always take at least one BT to deal with them, works wonders. Caused a Panic test on a 10 man unit with a Lvl 4 in there and they fled off the board turn 1, I had 1st turn.
As far as I can tell from the list he doesn't have a Champion in the Knights either.
My High Elves wouldn't give this a second glance, a Lvl 4 Archmage with Metal and 2 Lvl 2's with Metal (3 Searing Dooms) would make a mess of this (not a tailored list, I run mostly core with a lot of Mages, it's a Gate army with a contingent from Hoeth, plus Phoenix Guard (Phoenix Gate) and White Lions with a Prince (the Phoenix King). I struggle with Knights etc so I always take as many Metal mages as possible, my 3/4k has 2 Lvl 4s with Metal).
2D6 hits wounding the Dragon on 3s with no saves, the Dreadlord on 3s with no saves, the Knights on 2s with no saves and the Hydra's on 4s with no saves, leaving 60 Spearmen, a Sorceress, 10 Crossbowmen and survivors from the other units facing 36 Spearmen, 30 Archers and Phoenix Guard and maybe a BT if I had points. Wouldn't be pretty (would have to work to plan though). But that's only one army. If he dropped the Dragon it could be very competitive.
Last edited by Ravenblade; August 2nd, 2011 at 01:04.
Okay, so I reckon it all comes down to whether or not I want the list to be competitive or themed as I can't have both (as you mentioned ravenblade with your khanite army). I see what I have to do to change it. Might try and proxy models in the army against a freind, see if it works and then change it over to what you've suggested if it turns out it doesn't work. I see that you don't like the dragon any 1 bit in such small games. Which is what I expected, as it makes up for 1 quarter of my entire army and it can be obliterated with the right counter.
But if it turns out it doesn't work, I'll try to rewrite the list into what you guys suggested. swap 1 unit of warriors for more rxb? maybe add in a bolt thrower, get rid of the dragon, reduce cold one numbers, upgrade sorceress to lvl 4, add in a unit of elite melee infantry (BG or executioners) so it's not all monsters.
Eventhough I tried to "defend" the list earlier, I appreciate your criticism. As I wrote in 1 of my earlier posts, I'm fairly new to DE.
Hey don't worry, we were all new once and we all have lists like this written somewhere. And we all come to the point where we discover themed and competitive lists don't tend to mix well, if at all, whether through actual games or being told on the internet.
A lot of my "advice"/criticisms stem from the fact you put the word "competitive" in the title, therefore I tailored my advice to make the list more competitive. If you had said it was just a themed or fun list I probably wouldn't have even commented.
At the end of the day, we can criticise and say what we like about lists you write, but the long and short of it is that it's your list that you've made, it's your call. All we can do is try to influence your choices and attempt to help. Rofl.
Last edited by Ravenblade; August 5th, 2011 at 18:14.