Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
As stated in the title, I'm a 40K player finally coming over to Fantasy. Been considering either Dark Elves or Vampire Counts (with an outside shot at Wood Elves).
I'll primarily be facing High Elves, powergamed Skaven, and turtling Dwarves...How do DE fair against each of them? In addition to the battlebox, what units would I buy to compete against those armies?
Is it possible to create a DE army that kicks back and blasts away with a ton of offensive magic and shooting? Would that type of list be a foolish idea against the opponents I've listed?
I appreciate whatever responses you can give to help me finalize my decision. I've gone back and forth about 5 times in the last 2 weeks, so I don't want to start laying out a bunch of money until I know for sure what I want to do.
DE fare quite well against those armies, they fare well against any army if used properly.
If you want shooting and magic, DE can do that quite well. As opposed to your typical Dwarf or Empire static gunline, even a shooty DE list should be mobile. Use your speed to avoid enemy assaulters and pepper them with shooting and finish with a good charge. Our main ranged weapon, the crossbow, is not a straight killer, it's more suited to whittling the enemy down. Death by papercuts. The Bolt Thrower is the exception, it's a wonderful war machine and can cause havoc on enemy units and monsters (especially Dragons).
For offensive magic, Dark Magic is very good at this. Chillwind knocks off a few models and prevents shooting, Doombolt is more potent, Bladewind is ideal for picking off skirmishers and war machine crews, Word of Pain is more suitable to combat but reducing a big shooter to BS1 is always helpful, Soul Suck thingy is good against low armor and low T units (HE and Skaven, not so much Dwarfs), and Black Horror is wonderful against armored foes (murder on Dwarfs). The other available lores are useful too (metal vs. Dwarfs is always amusing) so pick them to suit your opponent.
For shooters, you have a solid selection of Core: Dark Riders and Crossbowmen. The former are very fast, very maneuverable, and just all around awesome while the latter are cheap and can double as a solid ranked unit with shields. Shades are very good special choices, and the Bolt Thrower is a good rare. Of course you can toss in other units to add some combat punch, it never hurts to be prepared.
What are you thinking of for a list? Do you want a fighty general or more caster? Cavalry or infantry or a mix? Any monsters?
For the rest of the army, I guess it kind of depends on what goes well with the casters. I love the look of the Cold Ones and Corsairs, but they sound more like close combat units that wouldn't fit this theme.
I'm assuming that a magic army would want to delay combat in order to continue to rain down destruction as long as possible. So, maybe a couple of fast moving speedbumps to slow the enemy down as I blast away with magic and shooting, then a couple of counter-charge units to finish them off as they get closer. Does that make sense? Of course, I'm not sure how that would work against something like Dwarves who (I would think) could beat DE in that sort of projectile battle.
One important thing to remember about WHFB vs 40K is that shooting is not the end all and be all of an army. Only two armies can field the sort of firepower to win only with shooting (Dwarfs, Empire), with DE you can have a lot of shooting and magic but keep in mind that sooner or later you are going to get stuck in to finish off what is left of the enemy. Indeed the whole reason I came over to fantasy years ago was because the fighting and movement rules were so much more interesting than 40K.
From your post and the type of army you want I'll mention a couple units.
#1. Dark Riders with Repeater Crossbows. Fast, mobile, shooty and excellent march blockers. From what you mentioned 2 or 3 units of these guys might make up your core.
#2. Shades with great weapons. Skirmishing with Repeater Crossbows and Great Weapons could be deadly. A couple units of 8-10 could be devastating in a mobile shooty army.
If you make an army based around these two units you will have a mobile hit and run shooty list which would be much more fun than a static gunline as it uses both mobility AND shooting to win. Mix in a couple sorceresses and you have the bare bones of the type of army you mentioned.
Last edited by Undead Bonzi; August 18th, 2008 at 19:14.
The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
Bonzi has the right idea, both those units are very useful. Speedy, shooty, and plenty of chop if they need to use it. Another Core unit you may want to consider are crossbowmen. They lack the speed and maneuverability of Dark Riders and Shades, but they are fairly cheap and if you give them shields they can hold their own in combat and provide some static combat res.
Corsairs and COK are both combat oriented, but don't let that discourage you. You'll need a beefy unit to deliver the killing blow. COK are perfect for this with lances and hatred; they can break a unit with one charge.
You'll also want to keep your casters safe, either by giving them Dark Steeds or Dark Pegasi to keep away from the enemy or hiding them in foot blocks. Spearmen are cheap and abundant and a good hiding place for a Sorceress, plus they can supercharge your magic phase if you use the sacrificial dagger.
Flip through the book, see what you like, and try to come up with a list. Experience is the best teacher, but a push in the right direction never hurt
Picked up the army book yesterday and I'm starting to read through it now.
I have a battlebox coming from GW at the end of the month as a painting competition prize, so that should get me started. Then, I'll pick up some additional units/heroes. I will definitely look into getting Dark Riders (or some Glade Riders to convert them from ). Thanks for the great feedback.
If I may suggest something, I understand that your main focus will be upon magic, correct? Why not build an offensive dark elf army? The dark elves in general are geared towards getting into CC, and just about their whole entire magic list can help them do that better. Im not saying completely abandon your idea of a shooty dark elf army, as I played one for quite a while. Im just saying if its a magic kick your looking for, in my opinion dark magic is more suited for an agressive list as opposed to a passive list. Just a thought
Interesting. That hadn't even occcured to me. I guess I always thought of magic in the classic sense of hurling fireballs. How would a CC oriented Magic based army look? What sort of heroes would it employ? Are there particular spells you had in mind?
Both Lore of Dark Magic and Lore of shadow are good combat oriented magic lores.
Lore of shadow
Unseen Lurker is the best spell allowing friendly units extra movement, even charges. That usually will make your opponent play more defensive as it's easy to get flank charges with that spell, flanked by a hydra... ouch or the overkill reared by dark riders.
Shades of Death is also nice, imagine 25 strong spear unit and it's causing fear. Or terror causing cold ones. Or terror causing black guard! (with dread banner).
Pit of shades is really good at taking on ogers/trolls and other low I models, instant kill is always nice.
Creeping death is good against low T good save models. Wounding almost always on 6 but when you wound that chaos knight it's gonna hurt.
Steed of shadows is a great support for assassins! just when your opponent thought your assassin was done with one unit he flies to another ¨¨. Or it could be a life saver, casting it on your sorceress to avoid combat or to get in range for your next spell.
The only spell that aren't that usefull is Crown of taidron I guess it can win a game if all hope is lost. But I wouldn't count on it.
Chill wind, Doombolt and blade wind is pretty much straight forward damage spells.
Word of pain... well it explains itself. With WS1 = 5+ to hit in CC and BS1... well good luck hitting anything with BS1.
Soul Stealer is so evil against horde armies. Goblins, gnoblars, skinks, ungors, zombies, skeletons... well I can go on forever. They have one thing in common. They come in numbers, have low T and really bad save. The perfect way to completely destroy that unit and at the same time gain some extra wounds.
Black Horror seems to be a straigt forward damage spell. But the best thing is that it causes panic test. Against low Ld armies it's quite devastating and possible sending most of his army fleeing.
As for heroes and units. I's say stick to sorceresses, as most DE units don't require combat oriented heroes babysitting them. If you want some CC killing power use an assassin, and he don't even use up character slots. The only other hero I'd use besides sorceresses is the death had with a cauldron.
For units I's say you have to have many fast units such as dark riders, cold one knights, shades w.great weapons and hydra. You will want to have some rank and file units too. Crossbows w.shields and corsairs for flanking.
An advice would be to put a sorceress with sacrificial dagger using lore of darkness in a unit of warriors and as well an assassin in there. She can cast supportive spells on nearby friendly units until you revial your assassin. Then cast steed of shadow on him and you'll have a flying assassin ready to charge just about everything or join other units.
Putting sorceresses on dark steeds (or dark Pegasus) will reduce your problem with range. Do not put her on a cold one... that's just stupid! <- haha get my joke? You may also want to put a sorceress in a unit further ahead in the battlefield such as in a black guard unit, and use the familiar.
If you're fighting dwarves or chaos khorne you can use power stones to secure your magic phase, way too overkill vs other armies.
yea have your main ranged army like crossbows bolt throwers and all that stuff then have like a assasin and cold ones also i think you should put your sorcere(wrong spelling) oon a cold one so if she is in trouble she can scoot away quickly (he or she)