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DE vs. O&G

2K views 29 replies 9 participants last post by  Attila the Hun Jr 
#1 ·
Hey all.. I am quite new, though I have played some games...
But I seriously need assistance..

I play against a friend of mine and his bloody orcs... He often gets a MV:.. :S

His center contains a Giant, Night Goblins(with fanatics) and a large unit of Orcs(30orcs) his flanks contain Chariots and small backup units, such as wolfriders..

Anyone got a small idea of how I should be done with the Giant, he always causes me alot of trouble(that toughness 5..)?

Thanks for your answers..
 
#2 ·
Repeater Bolt Throwers Repeater Bolt throwers and ummm repeater bolt throwers....maybe a hydra too depends on the points but those bolt throwers are just nasty for giants. As for his fanatics get some Dark Riders within 8" of the Gob units and let them pop out may just end up rolling into his own units.
 
#3 ·
I wouldn't waste dark riders on fanatics. 1 small unit of harpies spread out should bring most of the fanatics out at once. Then half of them will kill his units or even his giant, the other half will fall to repeater crossbow fire (even if you don't bring them, arm one of your Nobles with one and he can pick them off). Giants are too easy to kill with just about any of your troops or shooting or anything. They'll fall to 1 unit of dark riders dancing around them shooting at him.
 
#4 ·
Umm, O&Gs have very little to counter the effects of psychology. Sure they can get Ld. 9 if they have a Warboss but I used to hate coming up against fear or terror causing armies with my O&Gs. Flying, terror-causing creatures are a good way to cause lots of problems. Panic is also your friend.

I'd recommend harpies for the win. Cheap, expendable, flying skirmishers. Use them to lure out fanatics like the man said, but also block charges and manipulate the movements of his units - remember, the '6' on the animosity table forces the unit to move towards the nearest visible enemy. So use the harpies to make him either: a. turn his unit away from them or b. run towards them. Win, win, win!

Another use for harpies: chariot baiting. Put them in charge range of said chariot, and flee when it invariably runs at you. More win.

They're just about good enough to take out shamans too, if you use 'em as a suicide squad, or put them in the way of the giant to hold him up a bit. Win squared.

Basically, harpies = win.

V.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Harpies wil never win a game by themselves, though Vespasian seems to view them as the great all-purpose unit. They're more expensive than Witch Elves. Though all your listed uses are viable (ecspecially the Fanatic-baiting) spearmen are much cheaper and can actually fight back. Granted, you might want to take more harpies than usual to counter the wizards, but not that many.

An argument could be made for more Repeater Crossbowmen versus Orcs and Goblins but thugh they will hit and kill a lot, they won't take down enough. The tide of green will flow on, ecspecially with the goblins.

Now we can, a tactic I've found useful is to put assassins with Rune of Khaine in spearmen units. That should wipe out the normal goblins before too long, as you can't afford to have units bogged down for too long. Witch elves and corsairs with their many attacks are useful as they can take down units faster, tough witch elves will suffer a lot of casualties and smaller units are best avoided. Oneother thing: if your tactics are too take down the archers, don't bother. They don't carry to many VPs and don't make a difference. Focus on them after you batter the melee units.

Attila
 
#6 ·
Vespasian seems to view them as the great all-purpose unit.
Yep. B)

spearmen are much cheaper and can actually fight back.
Ahh, this old chestnut again? :highfive: I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that.

if your tactics are too take down the archers, don't bother.
A greenskin army with archers!? Who came up with that idea? Duck and cover, lads! :soldier: But yes, Attila is right. Ignore them as they only pose a threat if there's bazillions of them.

V.
 
#8 ·
To be fair, I played a couple of games with my O&G where I used two units of ten Arrer Boyz. They just formed up into two ranks and moved up the board 4" a turn, firing away at targets of opportunity (and, of course, failing miserably to kill anything).

But then they got into charge range (cunningly, in flank arcs... :disdain:) and went steaming in with their Choppas and kicked ass. They can cancel ranks and take out basic infantry fairly easily too. I won both times on the back of this tactic. So, I retract my earlier statement (re: they're only a threat in large numbers). They're only a threat at range if they're in large numbers.

V.
 
#9 ·
I have to agree with V on this one, in regard to the harpies at least. In a situation like this they are that much more versatile and effective than spearmen. Sure, spearmen can hit back with more attacks, but they move at 1/4 of the speed, cover less area and can't redirect as well as the harpies.
Use a couple of units of harpies to draw out fanatics, redirect chariots and wolf riders - causing them to be effectively out of the game for at least a turn as they have to change their facing, and hunt any war machines.
A couple of RBT's should scythe through his units with relative ease, and a unit of RXB's should be able to whittle the numbers down. Then simply hit them with combined charges to crush the units in CC - but only after they are suitably weakened.
Dark Riders are also good to march-block, threaten war machines and deal with small units of wolf riders.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Well, they're essentially normal orcs/goblins in melee, just without the oppurtunities for cool equipment. And just how many zeroes are in a bazillion again?

And Exarch Thomo, there's a thread in this section that lists every point I have to make against using harpies (at least in large numbers) for anything but specialist action. But I have to be in school in 7 hours, so I'll merely inform you that the thread exists, rather than list my argument.

Attila
 
#11 ·
Atilla - harpies do excel in specialised situations, as this one is. Simply put spearmen could not be able to do what the harpies can in this situation, and by the time they got there it would be too late. The speed of the harpies, and their ability to practically ignore intervening terrain and enemy units, is what makes them winners at this type of play - march blocking, redirecting, artillery hunting etc. If you are using them as primary, or even secondary, combatants then you aren't using them correctly.
 
#12 ·
How can you even consider comparing harpies and spearmen? You might as well say dont take cold one knights you can get 4 spearmen for every one! They have 100% different roles...spearmen are RoF front line fodder and harpies play a support role which happens to be extremely effective against O&G. They are the best answer we have to fanatics...nothing better than getting all those fanatics out on turn 1 in the enemy deployment zone... March blocking anyone? Kinda seems important against the relatively slow O&G. Gives our superior shooting more of a chance to work on the tougher units. Harpies also eat goblin crews up pretty quickly. Bolt throwers like to kill giants. Dark riders are excellent for setting up flank charges to negate those ranks on his large blocks while something like black guard or spearmen provide ranks, numbers, and kills. Good luck.
 
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#13 ·
yeah, I'm not seeing the harpies = spearmen or harpies substitute for spearmen if anyone is arguiing that case. What I love about the DE core units is that they are inexpensive (for elves) and have many purposes each. Harpies are great in units of 5-7 for all the reasons listed. A unit of 25 DE spearmen with warbanner, can take just about any core unit in the game head-on and at least break even if not win the combat. With hatred, maybe that's a bad thing (chasing wolves and exposing your flank is not recommended) but you do need some combat res infantry to place sorceress in. Dark riders should be able to take out the wolf/spider riders and then move on to eat doom divers quickly.

Regarding arrer boyz and NG archers, you do not want your hydra at the recieving end of one of those units. They are super cheap and get all there ranks shooting at you if you have a large target. They are perfect for killing manticores and hydras and have decent combat res if needed.
 
#16 ·
Exactly. Their speed, low unit size, relatively low points cost, and ability to get almost anywhere and ability to deal with targets of opportunity makes them a huge headache for your opponent. It's not that they can or will do all these things in one game, it's that they have the potential to be a flexible and opportunistic element of the army that makes them invaluable for this style of play.
 
#17 ·
Harpies can do all these things in the same way a lone zombie can technically win a battle. By sacrificing points for harpies you take away much-needed spearmen, and against an army that fields spearmen for three points, you need cheap infantry.

You have to fight fire with fire, and I would only use harpies for specialist tasks. Black Guard, Corsairs, Repeater Crossbowmen, all mounted units (plus hydras) and, of course, spearmen are essential in fighting Orcs and Goblins.

As a side note, I don't see continuation of this discussion leading anywhere, (it's panned out just like the last one) so I propose we leave it like this. Truce?

Attila
 
#18 ·
Harpies can do all these things in the same way a lone zombie can technically win a battle. By sacrificing points for harpies you take away much-needed spearmen, and against an army that fields spearmen for three points, you need cheap infantry.
Not necessarily, by spending points on harpies you are allowing the other units in your army to do their job better. Particularly your ranged units. Ask yourself would you really prefer more meat shields or a unit that allows you to dictate, to a degree, when your opponent hits your lines because of march blocking?

You have to fight fire with fire, and I would only use harpies for specialist tasks. Black Guard, Corsairs, Repeater Crossbowmen, all mounted units (plus hydras) and, of course, spearmen are essential in fighting Orcs and Goblins.
I've always preferred to fight fire with water myself, but to continue the fire vs fire analogy, use the harpies as a mobile firebreak.
Once again, the harpies are performing a specialist role within that army - slowing down your opponent, which gives your RBT's, RXB's another turn of shooting, allows you to ready your black guard, get your mounted units into a more advantageous position and start dictating the terms of the battle.

As a side note, I don't see continuation of this discussion leading anywhere, (it's panned out just like the last one) so I propose we leave it like this. Truce?

Attila
It probably is (although I must admit after a quick look through the forums I can't find that other thread - could you please pm me a link? I am interested in reading it).
Anyway, yes I think we have hijacked the thread a little (lot?) but yes, I'll consider a truce. Although, if you would like to continue this I am more than happy to (possibly via pm so we don't spam the boards) and I must admit I am curious to see how you manage your army. Anyway, truce. :soldier::handshake:
 
#20 ·
Spearmen arent necessary in taking out O&G just in the same way harpies arent. They all field certain roles. DE are perfectly capable of destroying O&G with no spearmen, and instead rely on movement/magic to goad and bait them into bad spots. You can't attrition an O&G army...thats playing to their strengths and our weakness. Why would you try to outnumber an army that as you say gets spearmen for 3 points. How about march blocking those spear men with some harpies and then using that to set up a flank charge with some cold ones? Thats much more likely to break the unit than trying to grind gobbos or orcs out with spear men.

I am not saying spearmen suck by any means but your insistence at the inclusion of spearmen to the exclusion of harpies is ridiculous. Why take any other units in the army at all if they are so good? "But wait but unit X is good too..." well why take spearmen when we can just take all of unit x. It isnt about one thing...spearmen play an element of a list, and harpies play a completely different role. Why not take both harpies and spearmen...they are both dirt cheap, and yes harpies are dirt cheap for 55 points a unit.

We are not syaing one single unit of harpies is going to do all those aforementioned things in one game either. Even if they do 1-2 of them, if you use it correctly they are worth their points. Plus usually you will have multiple units of them...so you can accomplish most of it. Send a few units behind their lines...this march blocks them and flushes out fanatics. The next turn have a unit stay with the line to march block and charge some warmachines with the other. Bam you have accomplished 3 goals with harpies that are invaluable in assisting our shooting, manuverability and propbally saved alot of lives later in the game(stopping fanatics from rolling through black guard and bolt throwers shooting down cold ones)

Dark elves are not about attrition. That is not our core strength. We are paper tigers...if we gut mugged down generally we have lost. Through use of movement and striking the enemy army in key spots we make up for this. Harpies excel at facilitating this role in the way only flyers/skirmishers can. Spearmen can also play a part by providing anchors in which to set up flank charges/ play as bait units.

Both units are cheap enough that you can take a good mix of both, what the ratio actually is, is up to you. I personally will never leave home without 2 units of 5. They prove to be to crucial in many common situations and its only 110 points, points i will gladly pay (especially against O&G where they fare exceptionally well).
 
#21 ·
On the other hand, spearmen are our basic unit, and without them, the army gets more expensive for less troops. And your troops may very well kill the greenskin 9 times out of 10, but if here are x wounds to take and you've only got x attacks, to many of your units are going to be locked in combat for a good proportion of the game.
 
#22 ·
No not really...you assume having more spear men means you will end combats quicker when that is not the case. Better manuevering and hitting key units with shock troops such as cold ones, black guard, execs., or even chewing through them with corsairs can break enemy units in one turn. Spear men on the other hand are more likely to get bogged down in prolonged combats because they have a low damage output and rely on static combat rez, which happens to be something green skins excel at. They really are nothing more than punching bags used to set up the rest of your army.

Fantasy isnt about killing the entire enemy unit either. So what if i am fighting 60 goblins...i can knock out 7-8 of them easily with 12 black guard and make that whole unit break with just those wounds. On top of that you are also assuming all these extra spear men units you are buying are in combat at the same time which is also not the case 90% of the time.
 
#26 ·
I think you have the Dark Elf spears confused with the High Elf ones there Attila - Warriors can only fight in 2 ranks with their spears.
And once again I have to disagree with your theory of taking more spearmen to the exclusion of other, more beneficial, units.
Sure, they should be able to hold a charge but, to use C/-Rt3r's anology Dark Elves (like the other elven armies) are paper tigers. Protracted combats really aren't something that we want to find ourselves in. T3 and relatively poor armour saves mean that we really want to end combats quickly, and the way to do this is not with more spearmen (which let's face it anything past the second rank is only providing static Res and their extra attacks are irrelevant - mind you the full static CR is nothing to dismiss) but with combined charges, flanks, rears, shooting and magic.
Harpies and Dark Riders allow you to slow the other army down, pester their war machine crews and wizards, and force them into spending time and resources to stop these relatively inexpensive annoyance units instead of your glass hammer units.
Their worth really shouldn't be measured by the amount of direct damage they cause - and this is the failing of mathhammer - but by their ability to affect the game as a whole. The fact that harpies can do everything that has been previously mentioned makes them quite a handy addition to the army and one which allows the army as a whole to operate far more efficiently and effectively.
And by the way, I found that thread - didn't look there because a discussion about Black Guard was the last place I expected to find a discussion about harpies.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I disagree with this sentiment. I have made several valid points, and many more on the thread I mentioned a couple of posts ago.

If your opinion is that my arguments are invalid, nonsensical etc. that's fine, I personally thought yours were reasonable, but please don't insult me.

Glares

Attila
 
#29 ·
Take a unit of 5-6 harpies whos goal is to die horrably. Turn 1 throw them at the night gobos to draw out the fanatics. If for some reason they survive then take them over to another unit of night gobos and pull out there fanatics. The point with harpies is not to fight and win but to have a cheap, expendable, and fast unit to die for you when you need them to. For the next couple turns have your 2 bolt throwers shoot the heck out of him as he has to run through his own fanatics.
 
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