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seriously, im getting sick of the "cheese" comments... i mean, how many people really buy into the cheese mentality? Wake up people, its a game, play by the rules or don't play the game. there is no such thing as cheese in a world governed by rules. (by world i mean the Warhammer universe)
there are two groups of people in this world that i have noticed. one, those people who call "cheese" at a certain play style or army list are normally sore losers who hate losing so much that on the facet of facing a list that appears difficult to win against they call "cheese" to try and make the other person feel bad and change the list or at least not use those models/tactics that were called cheese in a later game. most of the people who fall in this group most likely are the people who like using cheat codes in games. where is the fun in that though.
i for one fall into the second group. the group that does not buy into this mentality of "cheesiness" that people are using so much now or worried about being called cheesy. If I go against an opponent using a list that all the people in the first group would call cheesy I take it as a challenge and although i may be annoyed by something that gives me a hard time in-game and although I might even lose a game, I don't cry about it by calling it cheesy. What I will do though is keep using my brain....think of ways to combat hard unit setups, hero/lord setups, or tough opposing strategies. (besides losing is what makes victory so much sweeter)
I mean think about it guys, would someone call a part of someones list that they have no problem facing or a unit/character setup that they can kill easily a "cheesy" one? NO! Its only the ones that give them trouble that they will call cheesy. This in itself proves my point about the first group of people. If they truly liked a challenge then they would not call anything cheesy. I mean, besides all that, I am a realist... and being real, all things within the bounds of the army rulebook/main rulebook are valid. WHFB have been around for over 25 years, so after all that time the game is pretty balanced and if there is imbalance in a few areas still throw them a freaking bone and give them some credit... they will get to it eventually. Now, if you people are still wanting to give into the cheese mentality of thinking, then fine. But don't call someone else's play styles cheese just because you believe in it. You can play by your own cheese belief code if you want, but don't force it onto a person who does not believe in it or assume you will be playing against an opponent making their list in the "cheese" code of honor lol.
Did you have a specific point that would relate to Dark Elves book, units, rules, items since you posted this in the DE sub-forum?
To respond to your post...in a general sense I disagree with you but it comes from my definition of 'cheese'. I consider people who rules lawyer or exploit poor wording as cheesy. It is a game and it is rather pathetic if a person is driven to hour long feats of convoluted logic to justify some marginal benefit. However, I do not consider competitive armies or the people who play them cheesy. If someone wants to build a Thorek Gunline or a Tzeentch Flying Circus that is fine by me.
The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
Granted, I was not talking about those wishy-washy rules that could go either way... but to GW's credit they do eventually get around to answering hard FAQ's and i consider moments in games where those kinda things come up a different subject. I am referring to calling certain character setups/ unit setups/ and general list setups being called cheesy for no good reason except the fact that the opposing player doesnt like it.
I wrote a thread about this topic in the General Discussion area a few months back. As I see it there are 2 types of people who cry "cheese." The first one comes from a disconnect between the way the two players approach the game. If one person has more of a Win At All Costs(WAAC) approach than the other, his list can be found to be cheesy by the other who thinks certain items/lists/combos are "not sporting." I don't find fault with either attitude as everyone plays this game for a different reason and I think that all reasons are valid. It is the responsiblility of the players to find other players who have the same attitude about the game. That being the case, noone will find fault with anyone elses lists.
The other type, and the one the OP is referencing I believe, is the one that I really give no thought to. He is the player who whines and moans about anything that he cannot beat. I really don't care what he thinks or says because anyone that he cannot table by turn 3 is running a cheesy list. And heaven forbid that he should actually lose the game!!!! Then his opponent is using the Cheesiest of all Cheesy lists that has ever been curdled.
Honestly, if you happen upon this person just don't play. Life is to short, and free time to valuable, to waste on someone who is just going to b^^^^ & moan throughout the game. Play against opponents who feel the same way you do about the game and you will have a much more enjoyable time.
Good stuff necronid. I have one more thing to add though. You made a good piont where other players who do not play with the "win at all cost" mentality or whatever you said there. I agree they are not wrong for wanting to not play that way or if they consider it cheese to do so, but the biggest thing I am trying to make those people realize is that although you may consider it cheese, dont call your opponent cheese just because they do play with the Win at all cost mentality. Basically its their choice to make it harder on themself if they want to, but if someone else doesnt want to handicap themself the same way then its their own fault. Just saying that they should be prepared to just suck it up because they would be very naive to think that everyone they face feels the same way they do. And like you said, if someone does play with the win at all cost mentality they have that right to do so and its not breaking any rules.
For me I only consider something 'cheesey' or whatever if it becomes no longer fun to play with. Most of the people I play with tend to end up doing whatever is most fun as well as what would most likely happen/be the most brutal in real life. Of course winning is fun, but even loosing games are always full of surprises and enjoyable.... UNLESS you play against many units that are so dominating, that no matter what, it's the same outcome. where's the fun in futile efforts to attempt to take out a unit/character or two in order to even have the rest of an army to be able to play with?
Fortunately, unless there's close somewhat manipulation of the rules, this doesn't happen too often.
piling up almost every overpowered option = Cheese player, also called Powergamer. not very fun to play against all the time, but sure, it's ok now and then.
exploiting every "loophole" and poorly worded rule = WAAC, aka, douchebag.
Having a bit of cheetos now and then can be crunchy.
Being a fat smelly A-hole is definately not crunchy, so don't be.
A Wargamer cares about the game, and is having fun with it, win or lose, and might go for tactics that are doomed from the get-go, but are hilarious.
Now THAT's *Crunchy*
I've been guilty of calling some "cheese" now and again but more to the amusement of my opponent. Id consider "cheese" to be, like what you said, a WAAC person who doesn't even use a strategy to win but just relies on their army to overpower everyone. This doesn't make for a very fun game. For example, 40 Chaos knights, can be absolutely hilarious if you have lore of metal but other than that its just not fun at all to play against, and will garner the "cheese" rating from me. I have no problem losing to a worth opponent but someone who fields an army specifically to exploit the rules and win at all costs, is just not enjoyable at all.
WAAC players are annoying, but as to armies...
I play Space Marines, Bretonnians, and now Dark Elves. I've had every one of those called "Impossible to beat" by someone, calling cheese because they lose. These things happen, you just have to take it in stride.
It is very frustrating when you play against combinations that you know you cannot deal with, there aren't many such (Unit, Rules and Equipment) combinations but they do exist, I consider a cheesy player someone who finds such a combination and continues to exploit it. An example I guess would be Teclis (Ring of Hotek aside), fine on occassion, but when you have determined that he is good and you can win consistently with him leave him at home and try something different.
I guess that is WAAC, and more often those lists have a huge achilles heel, but there is a good chance that the list you brought with you will seriously struggle.
I don't think that Dark Elves are cheesy though as an army, they are damned hard and almost any build can be very competitive but there are some things in the book that don't seem to have been thought through totally.I disagree with this statement though as Warhammer as a game hasn't been 'refined', I started playing in 5th edition and the game was totally revamped in 6th ed (possibly needed), then the rules were refined (very well IMO) in 7th Ed, but the army books got revamped not refined, stupid rules like Speed of Asuryan, permanent 5+ Wards for Demons etc were added that were not needed. To say that they have been improving the game balance over 25 year is, I feel, not entirely true, they don't really make an effort to balance the armies and there are definitely some armies that you have to play very well to win with or very badly to lose with against an average opponent without a tailored list.Lokhir_Forever
WHFB have been around for over 25 years, so after all that time the game is pretty balanced and if there is imbalance in a few areas still throw them a freaking bone and give them some credit... they will get to it eventually.