Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I just got done playing my first real tournament game, which thankfully for me I won. In the game I took 5 shades. I am glad to be able to report that they did amazing! They killed 7 swordmasters (1 of my opponents full units), and bothered other units, while taking no wounds themselves. (1500 points)
In other games I have taken Dark riders. Each game I have taken them they have been destroyed either 1st turn, or 2nd. (1 acception against an army of Tomb Kings). (I know you may say that they have served their purpose dying so other units can get close, but I would beg to differ). I gave them RC's and a musician, like many on here have said to do. I love that they are fast cav's, but that is the only benefit I can say I have recieved from using them.
I know that point talking is not appropriate so I will ask you to look up the point cost of 5 DR's with RC's and a Musician (if you are interested)...not inexpensive in the least. (the shades I used were much cheaper and more effecive).
I would love for you to share you thoughts, and tell me what I am doing wrong with the DR's. (I have read many reports on them, and would like to know how you make them effective, and what teams you use them against. (I mostly play HE, WE, Empire, and TK's, and sometimes a collection of other teams).
I am not in the least bit saying not to use DR's, just that they have not worked for me...but I will definitely say this...I am not a veteran by any means, and I am satisfied with Shades to this point.
Thanks in advance, and I look forward to any and all your comments.
Honor Among Brothers
This is like words out of my mouth. From what I have experienced so far, harpies and shades fufill their roles cheaper and better. If you want to flank, Cold one Knights are much better than dark riders.
I think that they will become better as you get more tactical insight, so I am keeping my 5 DR for some more games, just in case I figure out something.
Dark Elves: Massacres: 14, Solid Victories: 2, Minor Victories: 0, Draws: 2, Minor Defeats: 0, Solid Defeats: 0, Massacred: 0
They haven't preformed very well for me either. They usually end up beeing shot to death early on or beeing chased off the board altneratively ran down.
Though, I must say I am not a very experienced player! I've had 10 games or so reacently, but befor that, I haven't been playing for 5 or 6 years.
I need to... pretty much learn to get the feeling of the game again. Distances and so on.
Allso, keep in mind that if they die early on, there's gotta be a reason. Your opponent wouldn't focus on them if they didnt present a threat in some way. I my next game, which might just be a 2K game against Lizards to day, I will try to keep them away and alive for as long as possible.
Chaos warhounds are sacrifial, Dark Riders, are not in any way!
I think a good idea is to use them on the extreme flank, preferably with shades or perhaps some cold one?
Remember that very few units in the Dark Elf army are meant to stand alone. They should work in synergy with eachother.
Allso, the source of the problem might be beacuse of overrating. In many threads you can read about how effective and annoying Dark Riders can be. And I'm sure they can, but I think some of us, due to those comments, asign them tasks they simply can't handle!
So try and trim your expectations down a bit, give them easier tasks and see what happens!
If it moves, shoot it! If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway ... It might move later!
Well dark riders don't actually need musicians, so 110 points is what I pay for my units. I usually run 2 of them, with RxBs. If you face opponents with a fair amount of shooting, they aren't going to do that well for you. Same thing goes for any unit of fast cavalry.
I personally use my dark riders as mobile RxBs. I am not a fan of basic RxB warrior, since dark riders give me enough shooting, and a better save. Since dark riders can maintain close range more than RxB warriors, even though they lack the volume, their hit rate is pretty close. First turn warriors hit on 6s if you move and fire over half range. Dark riders hit on 5s (move and within half range), meaning that the hit rate is equal. All one is trying to accomplish with shooting is a -1 or 2 to the opponents combat resolution, so they do just fine if you don't try and use them in combat. As for their war machine hunting ability, harpies will just bounce off dwarf crew, dark riders will get in some decent shooting, and then charge them, usually killing enough to put the War machine out of business. I only charge block units if I have no other option, since DR are just warriors without static res.
Another task I use them for is blocking movement, and redirecting charges. Putting them in the the front of block unit means that the block unit has to charge them or get their line broken up. (thus exposing key units flanks) If they do charge them, then the dark riders will either get away, and the it is a failed charge, or they are caught, and the unit HAS to move fully towards the DR direction. (thus exposing that units flank). The advantage DR have with this tactic over harpies, is that DR can hold (and can occasionally stand and shoot), and force the opponent to align without any chance at a strategic charge. (skirmishers can be victims of J- charges, strategic turns, and other funny rules issues)
One reason that many people are missing about why they are so good is that they act as your min core units. Harpies, shades and cold ones do not. If you don't want to field many/any block warriors, and you don't like the static line RxB warriors force you into, Dark riders are the only other core unit available.
Core for just about every elf army is terrible, the strength of elves is in the special units. The fact that DE get CORE fast cav is great boon. 2 units of 110 point RxB DR, and a 155 warrior block and you have just 375 spent on the required core, and you can spend to your hearts desire on specials, rares, and characters. Some armies have to spend 200+ for just one unit of crappy core. DE can spend under 400 for all of the required core.
I would like to start out by addressing Auere. I liked your comment about not giving up on them yet, and could not agree more. I don't want to give up on any unit in the DE army. (That is why i asked for help in this area).
To Xzazzarai I would like to say that maybe I have thought too highly of them because of the hype...just like you said. (I also need to play more games, and am not a veteran). I do use them on the flank, and have combined them with other units while in combat. (I could not agree more that units should have an accompanying unit). It may be that I should lower the hyped expectations a little. I just don't want to go to far because of the cost. (That is a huge hype in and of itself).
To notabot187 I would like to start out by saying thanks so much. (thanks to Auere and Xzazzarai as well).
I especially enjoyed your point about them being a core unit, and not only that, but a core unit of fast cavalry! That is a very good point.
I hadn't thought of using them as march blockers. That is something I will need to think about and try for myself.
Lastly, I would like to ask you where you place your units...do you use them on the flank, cause that is what I had heard, and what I have done...I have used them alone, and with units of COK's and a few other units at other times.
I also understand that some maps don't permit DR's, but my main question, is if they are an ideal choice, how do you know...what teams are they especially good against, etc. (I understand teams like VC they might excel, but who else?)
Honor Among Brothers
They excel against any army that has a human stat line or worse, or who have bad armor like ogres. The struggle against armies with decent to good shooting, and armies that have high armor, mobility, and toughness.
As for deployment, DR are really only able to survive on the flanks, since most shooting is going to be concentrated towards midfield. If your plan is to have them bite some shooting so your other units to survive first 2 turns, putting them in front of a block unit isn't a bad idea, unless your opponent has cannons of course.
I usually run the 2 I own together as a combined harassment force. Two units of very fast cav harassing a flank with high volume shooting means that the opponent has to honor that threat, even thought the bulk of the army is the other flank. The fast cav is the refused part of the refused flank strategy. Any thing that divides the opponents attention let the DE player achieve local superiority, since elves are able to concentrate high combat ability into relatively small squads.
If you are curious about how to set up a refused flank, here is how you do it with the you deploy I deploy method:
First unit down on my side is the warrior block. it goes smack dab in the middle of the zone, on the just behind the 12 inch line. Next unit is the first DR, it goes about 12 inches away on either flank. 3rd unit is anoher DR unit, it goes 12 inches away from the first DR, on the same flank, it should be pretty close the board edge, but not all the way (so you have room to manouver). If you have any bolt throwers or RxBs, they are put on the same flank as the DR. After all of the ranged distraction units are down, then you start build up more adept CC units on the opposite flank of the DR. They should be within support range of the warrior block, and there should be enough that you get pretty close to the board edge on that side as well. You should have a decent number of units on both flanks, but the ones on the strong flank are MUCH more powerful (and expensive) than the ones on the refused (DR) flank. The slower the unit is, the closer to the center it should be, so you should have Warriors and Black guard for the first quarter from the center, then any chariots or hydras, then you have the CoKs or flying monsters. You advance in a diagonal line based on the movement speed of the units, but keeping in support range of each other.
To make this work you also need a fast heavy hitter to stop any unit that might seek to break through, hydras and CoKs are good for this. They deploy as above, but during movement they move behind the other units to shield them and set up any rapid response to a breakthrough. (you don't want to have to turn units around) If you are curious to how this looks, here is a link that I found useful even if it is meant for a different game system: Peter DeFlorio's 4th Edition Tactica - Page 5 - Warmongers
Ok. Well that makes sense as to who they can stand up against.
That is an interesting set-up. So you will just have the RxB's and the RB Thrower shoot accross to help soften up the opposition for your main forces, or do you just concentrate on the units in front of your ranged units? (do you use them to soften up units for your main attack, or not)? (I mean is that the primary focus, or is it to just make him bring a unit/ some units over to you)?
I kind of like the idea of having them over to the side, but in my last game what saved me was where I deployed my RxB's. I put them just off center, and because of that I was able to finish off his dragon mage before he could get into close combat...if I had been over further I wouldnt have had the close range bonus. That is the only thing I am questioning...other than that I like the idea, and may have to try it out.
I also do like the idea of putting the DR's together if I have 2 units. (it would add a lil more kick to the units). I will also check out the website. Thanks. +rep