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I'm not sure if anyone has suggested this unit, but here is one of the things that I am trying out(and quite successfully)
-Crimson Death - Bearer strikes with Str 6, never modified
-Armor of Eternal Servitude - 5+ Armor save. Regeneration
-Pendant of Khaeleth - Reverse ward
-Hydra Banner - All models get +1 attack in the first round of any combat(applies to mounts as well)
10 Cold One Knights
-Dread Knight with Ring of Hotek - All magic within 12" is a miscast on a double, and lance
-Banner of Hag Graef - All models in unit gain Always Strike First
I also run with a Cauldron of Blood and give this unit the +1 attack buff. I run them 7 wide in the front and 5 in the back, which gives me 1 rank. On the charge, I have 26 str 6 and 14 str 4 attacks. If charged, I get 6 str 6 and 34 str 4, still striking first. This of course goes with Eternal Hatred. And, even if charged by High Elves with their ASF, this unit has Initiatives of 8, 7, and 6!! Not too shabby.
While they are getting into position, I give them the 5+ ward, so the unit then gets a 2+ armor and 5+ ward saves, with the best magic protection item in the game. The unkillable lord is there incase the unit gets charged by a big nasty.
Now the weaknesses. First off, the unit is not fast cav, so it is a little unyieldy. I would not suggest this to a player that is not comfortable with their movement strategies. If this unit gets charged in the flank, it is pretty well hosed. I use a hydra and heavy shooting to protect my flanks.
Also, the unit is stupid, but with the general's ld 10, it doesn't come into play often, and even if you fail it and move 3.5 straight forward, and are then charged, it doesn't really matter due to ASF banner. My worst fear is failing stupidity and having that movement give my opponent a flank with something nasty.
So for an example and using averages, I charge a Slann unit of Temple Guard. They are one of the harder units to kill. Lets say he has 21 Temple guard. They have a WS of 4, are T4 and have a 2+ save in combat. So...
26 attacks from riders, hit with 17, then with another 6 from hatred for 23 hits total.
Wounding on 2+, so 19 wounds.
-3 to armor, so they save 6, giving me 13 wounds.
14 mount attacks hitting on 4s, so 7 hits, 3 more from hatred for a total of 10.
Str 4, T4 so 5 wounds
-1 to armor so they save 3 and take 2 more.
So, in this scenario, I killed all but 6 temple guard on the charge. Of course no one attacking back, but freaking stubborn on a 9 rerollable with Cold Blooded, the units still not going anywhere. But you get the idea.
So, let me know what you think.
Last edited by Lordsoth3; October 16th, 2009 at 16:16.
Extremely cool, harsh idea.
However, and forgive me if i am wrong, but i was under the impression that you need to have the same amount on the second rank than you do on the front rank.
I'd love to know that i am wrong however.
cool idea though anyway.
Rulebook pg 38. Under Extra Rank section of the Combat Result Bonuses. 2nd paragraph towards the end.
"The bonus can be claimed for an incomplete last rear rank, so long as it contains at least five models."
I run the extra 5 guys more to the point of soaking up some wounds and maintaining maximum number of guys in the front rather than the rank bonus. It is still nice, however.
erm...how that unit is just too easy to kill. It might be an effective delivery unit for a Dreadlord, but you will be losing at least 2-3 models each turn, despite your best efforts at protecting them.
your unit is only 1 rank, and sure, causes Fear, but that is nothing to a Terror causer who can easily out manouvre your entire front line, turn and pull off a rear charge. With so many points invested in one unit (800 +) a High Elf player can field a Star Dragon Prince and a Dragon mage, both of which can outmanouvre your unit and rear charge it, potentially breaking it in one turn.
Its not a great Deathstar TBH. Too susceptible to shooting, to obvious a target to force your enemy to risk magicking it, and too easy to neutralisee with fast cavalry and fliers.
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Alright. On the point of the shooting. I use 2 units of harpies and have 2 units of dark riders for screening if need be, so shooting isn't horrible, although I agree, it is one of the units biggest weaknesses.
Now on to the dragon. The only way you can get by this unit, is to tarpit with something with a champ. So lets say Phoenix Guard with a champ, but I'm not going to forget about him and he will be dead by the end of that turn. Then in the following round, you charge me in the flank. But because my lord is in combat, I would just challenge from my Dreadlord and the Prince would have to take it. If you want to try and dance around a few rounds to get in position, you will be taking 60 armor piercing str 3 shot and 2 bolt throwers per round. Believe me, you either hide the dragon, or you get it into combat. So, lets say you get into position and you get a front charge with the Star Dragon and a rear charge with your Dragon Mage. I'll even give you the benefit of winning the ASF roll.
So combat starts. I challenge with my lord. The Prince goes first. He has 4 attacks hitting on 4's so 2 hit. We'll say both wound. I have a 1+ so a 4+ armor modified, so I save 1 wound. I then have the reverse ward, so I save the remaining wound on anything but a 6. If I roll a 6, I then have a 4+ regen, so basically no wound gets through. Now, my Dreadlord goes, as the Star Dragon does not have ASF.
I have 6 str 6 attacks rerolling misses. I attack the dragon, both WS7, so I hit with 4, then again, going against myself, only 1 more on the reroll. So 5 hits. Str6, T6, 2.5 wounds, rounded down to 2. Dragon now has a 6+ save, which he probably fails, so 2 wounds. Dragons turn.
6 attacks hitting on 4s so 3 hits. Probably 3 wounds. 1+ to a 5+ I'll save 1 wound. Reverse ward, save the other 2, again regen if that gets through, so no wounds on my Dreadlord. My mount attacks back, but we'll assume nothing gets through. So the Dragon Mage.
Again, mage goes first. 2 attacks at str 3. He's not getting anything through. So now my knights.
4 Knights in combat, so 12 attacks. 4 at the mage, 8 at the dragon. 3s to hit the mage, so probalby 3. Str 4, t3, so 2 wounds, mage dead. 8 at the dragon hit with 4, 2 more from hatred. 6 hits, str 4 t6, so only 1 wound. Now my mounts go since they benefit from ASF. 4 guys so 8 attacks. Needing 4s, so again 6 hits with hatred. 1 wound. Now the dragon. 4 attacks, hitting on 3s. 3 hits, Anything but 1 to wound, so 3 wounds. 4+ armor modified, so save 1 or 2, give you the benefit of the doubt. So i take 2 wounds. Now, combat rez.
Me: 2 wounds on Star Dragon, 2 more on Sun Dragon, 2 on Mage = 6 wounds. Banner, BSB, outnumber so 9 CR
High Elves: 2 wounds, Rear. 4 CR. Down by 5. Again, this was giving the High Elves the benefit of the doubt in every situation.
Now, I seriously don't want to toot my own horn, but I am very careful with this unit and the supporting units that are around it. I've played some of the nastiest VC, Demons, High Elves against some of the best players, and I have yet to lose, and in most cases, wins. Man I love this unit!!!
I used to run almost the exact same list, though the dread lord was the hydra blade potion of strength version. It is indeed one of the nastiest hammer units. One game I had it go through full ranks of fully upgraded and haralded plague bearers in one turn. (he rolled average for his wound, but got boxcars for instability, poof, did enough wounds to kill off the rest of them) When they roll well, they will roll over anything. When they roll below par, they get stopped for a turn, and get flanked and die. It relies quite a bit more on good rolls than you would think.
Like all gimmick lists, smart opponents will figure out a counter strategy. I use this one when people aren't expecting it. It is a list trick that is very effective when the opponent doesn't see it coming.
To beat it play like it is a brettonian super hammer of doom list, and flee and flank. Of course, the support units aren't easy to deal with, but if you can't deal with the support units, you certainly can't deal with the hammer.
You want to get rid of all the negatives(well sorta) add Malus Darkblade, the only elf (Other than Black Dragon Egg ones) Who gets higher than T3, not only this but he gets rid of stupiditiy and has a whole slew of attacks, I recently ran this unit in a doubles tourney, nearly the same exact set up(friend ran WoC cav list) Needless to say we hit hard and we hit fast, In every game I have played with this unit, It has never been beaten in combat. This unit is truely amazing, and as he said, the Dark Rider support is enough to put any unit into combat(sure its S3 but enough S3 AP shots and there's going to be some failing). I've had Plague Bearers in the front, Bloodthirster in the flank and Fiends in the Rear and this unit held and killed off the Thirster with the Dreadlord, the Fiends didn't stand long to Malus, and the Plague Bearers were massacred by the Knights and Bsb. Don't be so hasty to point out weaknesses.