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My brother plays a clan Pestilens Skaven army, with a plague furnace, doomwheel, warp-lightning cannon, etc. I find it very difficult to even manage to draw with him. Are there any tactics that are suited to fighting this sort of army?? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
What about shooting and magicking him to pieces? Take out his shooting first and play with the rest of his army.
Dark Elves: Massacres: 14, Solid Victories: 2, Minor Victories: 0, Draws: 2, Minor Defeats: 0, Solid Defeats: 0, Massacred: 0
I have not seen the Skaven's new army list, but I was an avid Skaven player for 5th edition and a little into 6th edition.
I to this day DESPISE the Dark Elves with every fiber of my being. I do not believe I ever won against the DE's.
I mean, in 5th edition, it was like they designed that army list with a "Ok, how do we maximize EVERYTHING they do to destroy the Skaven with?" mentality.
It did not matter if I was taken a Skaven-Take-On-All-Comers vs a DarkElf-Take-On-All-Comers army lists. The standard DE army list is like made to crush the Skaven.
And it got even worse if I was playing a DE player whom absolutely KNEW he was going to play me.
But....since this is 7th edition......
I am hearing that the Skaven Hell Pit Abominations are truely terrifying- they are powerful and have regeneration. As long as the DE does not have a LOT of War Hydra's (and if he does you can console yourself that it means no RBT's) the DE do not have access to a lot of fire based weapons and thus the Abominations sound like they may do quite well vs the DE's.
My experience is, since I was on the receiving end of it.......
At some point, your repeating crossbowmen are superior infantry troopers and with the Repeaters, they can really wipe out most of their troops underneath StormVermin status. Plague Monks are a little harder to whittle away with their high T's.
Expect their magic to be orientated to attacking you and not as much defensive magic. If he has a Screaming Bell/Grey Seer combo, that will protect the Seer from your magic so you might want to concentrate on other aspects. Remember that he can (usually) afford tremendous losses via magic or shooting whereas you cannot so consider that when unleashing your magic.
His WarpLightning Cannon should be firing at your Hydra's first, Cold One Knights second.
His infiltrators if he is not accurate on their ranges, will come out often in perfect firing position for your own troops. So I would consider a lot of smaller unit of repeating crossbow's instead of a few bigger units.
Having something terror generating in the rear of your army can help- It happened to me often enough where my gutter runners did not even get to attack because they failed their terror test.
Thanks for your help. There are just so many of them!! If I kill off a whole bunch of skavenslaves with magic or shooting, hes only lost about 30 points. And then they panic, and you'd hope the other units around them would then panic as well, but because he has such a huge rank bonus, he's normally taking rolls at a leadership of 9 or 10! And if he's got a BSB nearby, he gets to re-roll those. I reckon I need to take out his characters as early as possible. What is the best way to do this?? Do we have any units that excel at hunting down characters??
Keep in mind that I haven't played with dark elves yet, as I'm flushing out my eldar before I start a fantasy army, but it seems like assassins would be perfect at thwacking a nasty character in the head. "Oh you think you can kill that spearmen with no problems? HAH! ASSASSIN!" and then proceed to slaughter the character in base contact with him. That, and don't we have a spell that allows for a couple wounds to be shot against the special character? With all the power dice we can throw around seems like we should be able to get our spells off.
I actually disagree with trying to shoot skaven to death. They can do the same thing to DE, but have MUCH more wounds to give before having problems. The way to beat Skaven is to use DE superior close combat ability. Skaven aren't very good in CC, and rely on SCR and certain special units to try to win combat. DE units can absolutely blow past skaven units SCR, assuming they can make it into combat. That is where having a strong magic phase comes into play. Lore of dark magic has 2 spells that can slow or stop shooting, and 2 spells that can decimate large blocks.
Or you could go with ring of hotek and seal of ghrond, with a scroll caddy as magic defense. Then you concentrate your points on combat ability.
Did I read that your opponent is rerolling his panic test from shooting? I thought that you only get to reroll break tests. I don't usually play armies that panic much (DE can field quite a few ItP units if you really want to), so I can't remember that rule very well.
The hellpit abomination isn't actually all that bad. Sure it is T5 with 6 wounds. But its only save is regen, it has random movement, and it is a large target. There is a thread on the lizard mens board that is all freaking out about them. I have no idea why, sure if they get into CC they are nasty, but they are expensive and have random movement. They can be avoided and Dark riders and shades can just torrent of fire them to death. It isn't like you should be shooting at blocks.
Skaven blocks die to black guard, witches, cold ones, hydras, dragons, manticores, chariots, assassins, and corsairs. So skaven blocks pretty much die to everything in the de book other than spear warriors (and sometimes even them if supported with a character)
Where skaven hurt you is their shooting, and their ability to throw away units to slow you down and position you for flank charges. Since they have more units than most armies, they can really overwhelm you if you get bogged down or make bad charges. So how to beat them is to overload one side of their army and roll their flank. It isn't that hard if you deploy well, skavens numbers means they are very limited in how they deploy, they end up taking up much of their board side. (this makes refused flank deployment easier)
One thing to watch out for is the fact that due to hatred, DE MUST overrun or pursue. This can really mess up your battle plan since pursuits are rolled randomly. Your units can end up somewhat exposed. A savvy skaven player will use his slaves to exploit this as much as possible.
I don't like DE rxb warriors. (especially against horde armies) They bring only one thing to the table: shooting. They can't do anything else than be an attrition unit. Skaven do attrition better. So trying to bring a gunline army is playing right into to skaven's strengths.
As a former Skaven player.........this is what generally happened......
I put out speed bump units of Giant rats or Slaves (note- in 5th and 6th edition, regular units did not take panic tests if they broke or fled). Followed up by blocks of infantry.
The Dark Elves usually if they KNEW they were playing me, had pretty much a gunline army- lots of Repeating Crossbows. I remember they once had over 50 crossbowmen (and 100 shots) coming per round at me!!! Think about that- 50 Repeating Crossbowmen and 100 shots!!! Per round!!!
They would be deployed in a V formation, where they were spread out, where generally, everything was aligned where they could be firing at anyone, everywhere.
One time, they had lots of crossbows on each flank, their WE's in the center. They actually pulled back moved backwards in order to give their crossbows more time to work. I had everything in the center and was already coming and had no choice but to advance but by round two, my speed bump units were gone and my 'winning' units (the units I counted on to win) were getting hammered.
So my suggestion to you is lot of crossbowmen in units of about 10, deployed staggered but linearly across the middle part of your deployment zone. In their gaps, put your repeating bolt throwers. In the center should be your prime kick ass units. On one flank you should put your cavalry. This is key because when they make the Skaven do close range on the center of your army, they need to be able to swing in and hit the Skaven in the flank and take out their rank bonus, which makes even the Storm Vermin beatable.
Cool, thanks very much. Thats a great help.
I was under the impression that skaven's best list still is a Shooty army of Death (S.A.D.)
If your opponent is fielding a shooting and magic heavy list, then standing back might not be the best option. Skaven can put out quite a bit of shots, and their magic is not to be trifled with.
I hear the Skaven's shooting is more close range shooting. The Jezails and Warp Lightning Canon have range, but everything else needs to have the enemy close to get off their shots. A lot of their shooting is teams attached to larger units (warpfire throwers, ratling guns) etc have to accompany parent units before they reach optimum firing range, which is usually one round before CC.
Dark elf scouts and harpies generally have a field day taking out skaven Warp lightning crews or Jezail teams. So you can't count on too much from them. Their other teams generally need to be behind speed bump units.
Dont underestimate the power of your magic, either. Dark Magic is pretty deadly and has the potential to really do a number on the Skaven. There are a few spells that are REALLY good vs them. Skaven generally have their magic built around optimizing their own magic, so you can expect to get off a lot of magic against them.