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Ok heres my problem, my friend and I both play 2000pt games, Im Darkelves and he is Chaos/Beastmen. Everytime we play he outright slaughters me, im not sure if its just that chaos is BULL$h1T or im not doing something right.
When we play my crossbow men can't put a single dint into his 18 man Chaos warrior regiments and my boltthrowers cant take his knights out worth a damn. About 2nd or 3rd turns his Bray-shaman ambushes 2 regiments of 20 gors/ungors, they take out my range and screw up my flanks. When I charge my Spearmen and back it up with my executioners i cant kill more than about 2, when he attacks back he kill half a regiment. My assassins are the only thing that makes him nervous. I have a level 4 sorceress on a dark steed but he takes it out and the squad of darkriders she is in with his freaking hellcannon.
What am I doing wrong!
Just ask and ill post our lists.
hm... I've never played against beastmen and I don't know your nor his army lists so I can only give you advice according to what I've read out of their armybook and give you some DE advice.
... btw isn't the hellcannon only for archaons army?
anyway I took a look at the beastmen armybook and have come to this:
I'd rather have a highborn as lord choise, mount him on a dark pegasus or manticore and have a nice magic item combo such as Draich of Dark Power & Heart-stone of Darkness combo or Gauntlet of power & Shield of Ghrond combo, the aim is go and kill of his characters and knights, the knights will probably be the biggest priority.
For the rest of your character slots I'd have either 2 sorceress on dark steeds and a noble or assassin or just 3 sorceress on dark steeds... Arnizipal's Black Horror do the job for me every time (hint hint this spell's very good at taking out his chaos warriors) oh and have each sorceress ride with a unit of 5 dark riders.
Cold one chariots work pretty good against the chaos warriors otherwise boltthrowers.
Gors and ungors are pretty weak so repeater crossbow fire should take them down. If they ambush then you shouldn't have any problem taking them out with your dark riders... if you still have problem taking them our try scouts, if you want to meet them on CC then I think corsairs will do the work fine.
As for the hellcannon... have some nicely deployed scouts or some harpies go and kill of the crew... how tough can two chaos dwarves be?
found a article on how to defeat archaons hordes on UK GW website... they posted this about defeating the hellcannon:
" So, how to deal with these monstrous daemonic machines? Well, there are a couple of pieces of good news under all that doom. Firstly, Archaon's Horde excels at one thing â€“ close combat. The Chaos forces will try to close with you as quickly as possible, and once they are engaged, they prevent the Hellcannon from dropping any more salvos of hideous wailing doom on you â€“ you'll have great spiky axes to worry about instead. Not much of a bright side but sometimes, when there's a couple of daemonic cannons growling at you, close combat doesn't seem so bad.
Secondly, and far more importantly, the Hellcannon has one major Achilles heel. The Rampage special rule forces the Hellcannon to roll 2D6 in the Compulsory Moves phase â€“ if there is an enemy unit within that distance in inches then it must charge them. When it rampages, it can't launch daemonic blasts of energy into your lines, and you can always flee from the charge, hopefully rallying in your next turn and forcing the Hellcannon to charge once again. In this way you can lead these behemoths on a merry little dance, growling and spitting as they attempt to sate their thirst for steaming flesh and blood laced with the taste of fear.
How best to go about this? Simple; use Skirmishers, Fast Cavalry and Flyers. All you need is to get a small, mobile unit close enough to the Hellcannon that it will Rampage (try nipping round the flank or flying over the Chaos battle line) â€“ 3" away is a good place to aim for. Then flee the charge and repeat the process â€“ Fast Cavalry are very good at this, due to the fact they can move when rallying after voluntary flight. Tunnelling troops and those that enter play from a table edge, such as Dwarf Miners, are also very handy for this role.
Another tactic to employ against the Hellcannon is salvos of missile fire. You probably won't damage the machine much, but, as with many war machines, the weak point is the crew. The Hellcannon has a nasty habit of devouring its own Chaos Dwarf handlers on a misfire, and whether by shooting or misfire if it has no crew it will Rampage every turn from that point on, even to the extent of charging Chaos troops (basically whatever is nearest to it). In this manner you can stop it from firing normally and set it on the Chaos horde into the bargain â€“ it'll need a fair bit of committed firepower to achieve this result though, which you may well need to use elsewhere."
Don't let the executioners fight his Gors and ungors... if you want to use them then use them to back up your units fighting his knights or warriors. Also don't use too big units of executioners... 10 are usually enough.
Centigors, Beastigor and warhounds should go down pretty easy by any shooting or magic fire.
If he have monsters such as trolls, ogers, minotaurs and giants... first try to weaken them with boltthrowers then charge with whatever strong units you have... like mass of spears or a unit of CoK... or maybe even a hydra.
Counter chariots with Boltthrowers.
remenber your advantages... DE are mobile... probably the most mobile army in the game after WE and Chaos are clumsy and slow... so use your mobility to marchblock his units and concentrate on taking out one unit at the time.
uh well that's about as much as I can help you for now... I think.
Last edited by zhaf; August 2nd, 2005 at 02:07.
a hellcannon is 0-1 choice in a mortal army and takes up 2 rare slots, i used the black horror but the powerdice he got for the shamans and the 2 marked khorne units made sure it wasnt used, i also had a chariot but that was taken down by his chaos aspiring champion in his chariot (damnit) and my repeaters only took out like 3 out of 20 with 32 freaking shots! My black dragon was taken out by tzeench magic and 1 hell cannon shot in the first round of the game. One of his shamans almost had a miscast but it had the staff of change or what ever bull chaos has and he ended up taking out a few spearmen
Heres my list
High Sorceress: LVL4, Darksteed, Tome of Furion, Darkstar cloak, and Rubric of Dark Demensions
Assassin: Extra wep, Rune of Khaine, Manbane
Assassin 2: Touch of Death, Bitting Blade
16x spearmen: FC, shields
16x spearmen: FC, shields
5x Darkriders: Champion, standard, crossbows
16x repeater crossbowmen: FC, Shields, Repeater crossbows
13x Executioners: FC, Standard of slaughter
2x Reaper Boltthrowers
This might help
ok you've two errors on your list... first you can only take one magic item from each of the 'Talismans', 'Enchanted Items' and 'Arcane items' sections... so Tome of Furion, Darkstar cloak combo is a no no.
second, only a highborn may take a black dragon. so a lone black dragon is a no no too.
ok some coments on your list...
I generally like sorceress more than high sorceresses... but it's just my personal taste, but when it's a high sorceress then she should ride a dark pegasus for maximum mobility. Rubric of Dark Demensions is pretty useless cause you often don't have more than 2-3 models that are in base contact with you at the same time.
Assassins often doesn't pay off as they can't kill for their pointvalue.
Spearmens work best with units of 20+ and need all the extra combat resolution stuff they can get. Against chaos I'd rather have the hand weapon & shield combo than spear combo.
Crossbowmen are often not worth it IMO... cause DE got sooo many other units that can shoot as good as the crossbowmen.
Just one unit of dark riders are too few. The more the more irritating for your opponent .
Executioners work better with banner of murder... for ensuring to get the charge. And I usually only have 10 executioners... but that's just a matter of taste.
ok lets see what I think you do wrong here...
First your magic get canceled and his magic coming trough are because you only have one high sorceress... that means too few powerdices and too few dispell dices... I rather have 2 or 3 sorceresses.
His warriors doesn't die from your repeater crossbow fire... ofcause they don't!... they're freaking chaos warriors... and your repeater crossbows are weak. Therefore get your boltthrowers and shoot at them... both the single bolt and the multi shoot works just fine.
About his knights... hm... make a big blok of spears and lure him to charge it... then flank with your executioners and CoC. If you use your assassin give him Touch of Death and extra hand weapon, hoping that he manages to kill of some knights with killing blow.
About his chariot, focus both of your boltthrowers on it... and fire the strong bolt version and hope to take it out in one turn. Since a champion of chaos isn't that fast, you don't need to worry about him for a while.
I'd suggest to switch your crossbowmen to shades or harpies and try to take out his hellcannon crew.
you can put something mean with the 320 pts from the dragon.
about the shaman and the gors/ungors... buy some more dark riders and crossbow them to death.
The key to DE strategy are their mobility... to march block your opponent and confuse them to charge the wrong unit will lead you to victory. Dark magic are powerfull so use it on a large scale. DE are the hit and run/shootly type of army, they are not particular durable in CC. So don't even think that you can beat chaos in only CC.
Ok lets see what I know of your opponent... he have 1 hellcannon one aspiring champion of chaos on a chariot, a shaman and a tzeench sorcerer. One unit of 20 warriors (probably the handweapon & shield combo right?), one unit of knights (probably 5-8 knights right?) and 2 units of 20 gor and ungors. and two of his units are mark of khorne.
Is this all of his army? does he have anything else? are his warriors and/or knights chosen?... who is the general and what mark does it have?
Ok so acording to what he got I made a quick base list of what I think might defeat him.
Highborn (army general) with heavy armour, seadragon cloak, shield, reapeater crossbow, Draich of Dark Power & Heart-stone of Darkness and rides a dark pegasus. 308pts.
Sorceress 1 lvl2uppgrade, rides a darksteed, Tome of furion, Seal of ghrond 183pts
Sorceress 2 lvl2uppgrade, rides a darksteed, Crystal of midnight, darkstar cloak 188pts
Sorceress 3 lvl2uppgrade, rides a darksteed, Black staff, dispel scroll 188pts
Dark Riders 1 (x5) musician, standard, herald, crossbows 155pts
Dark Riders 2 (x5) musician, standard, herald, crossbows 155pts
Dark Riders 3 (x5) musician, standard, herald, crossbows 155pts
Shades (x5) 70pts
Reaper Bolt throwers (2) 200pts
I think it's a good base and leaves you with 400pts of other units.
Ok so what strategy are we looking at... your lord is a flying character killer... and fairly good at taking on smal special units too. so go and charge his knights if they're only 5 models strong... otherwise go character hunting. Attach one sorceress to their own unit of dark riders... with that mobility you can now move very freely.
Use 'Crystal of midnight' on his wizard with his best spell and hope to remove it. Hopefully you can get black horror with one or two mages...word of pain and dominion are good on his chaos warrior and knights and soul eater are good on his gor/ungor units. Doombolt are good agains his warriors and chillwind are good agains the hellcannon crew... cause if you just kill one crew menber with it they can't do anything during their shooting... and as far as my knowledge goes... cannons shoot . With 3 sorceress you should success with half of your spells and with one of his wizzard loosing one spell, then you won't get as many spells on you.
Ok with your 3 units of dark riders and one unit of shades you should be able to march block his entire army... and aim your magic missles and shooting with your dark riders on his damn hellcannon... 2-3 petty chaos dwarves shouldn't stand that long...
First priority with your Boltthrowers is to take out that chariot with strong shoots. And then blast away on his warriors.
So by the time of the second turn he should have lost his crew to his hellcannon and lost one wizzard (to your lord) and a chariot. Now you should use your magic to concentrate to kill of either his warriors or knights. Be shure to cast 'dominion' and move them to your favour if they're too close to you, if you can't avoid CC then cast 'word of pain'. Your lord can now either continue his character hunting or help out taking out either his warriors or knights. By doing this every turn (placing your dark riders and scouts to march block and killing of unit by unit) your opponent will get very frustrated but more importantly... you'll win .
If you've placed your units good enough you'll never get touched! (happened to me once when I fought orcs and once against chaos... whose were 1500pts games though)
Last edited by zhaf; August 2nd, 2005 at 23:47.
wow, thanks alot dude, lets see thats $100 for dark riders and about $80 for the shades and harpys. Awsome,ill be alittle broke but while knowing i have a chance at killing chaos
np... if you're good at converting you might want to wait unitl end of this month for the new Wood Elf Glade Riders. They should look badass if converted to Dark Riders... and in this way it'll cost less to, but ofcause it'll cost more time .
and a reminder again... place out your Dark Riders well... they've paper thin armour so they don't stand a chance if they get charged. The key is not getting in CC unit maybe when they're very very weak or when you absolutely don't have any other choice. Remenber turning cost movement... and your dominion spell can move enemy units .
So learn how to place them... it'll maybe take a couple of games, but when you got it right. Your chaos opponent will either switch entirely to tzeench or looking for a new army than can shoot hehe joke... but really a pure CC chaos army have some serious problems agains a experienced DE player.
Well it looks like Zhaf pretty much hit the nail on the head, often when I play chaos I like to put a noble with the crimson death in a chariot and have him go flank charge a unit of wariors, generaly they will either run away, or just be so weak they cant fight back. Also againts knights with your RBTs make sure to use multiple shots, just because that allows you to cause more wounds over all and will give you a better chance of killing off the unit. Again against the ambushing units just keep some dark riders back and charge them, they should flake out pretty quickly.
Hope this helps
I'd go the other way - ditch the dragon and assassin - take some cold one knights (6 gives a good unit size). Make your spearmen blocks of 20 and consider a Hydra (it gives him something to focus on). Your list is a pretty slow DE army - Keep a unit of shades or dark riders. Essentially lure him into an uncordinated charge using your dark riders (or harpies) then counter attack with cold one knights. Keep the RBTs - just use the 6 shots against his tougher units - but concentrate your fire (its a war of nerves!). You can also use your faster units to stop chariots from manouevring.
I agree with zahf on the sorceresses - taking two at a lower level is much more flexible than just one high level. You can give one (or both) more protection by giving them mobility - a cold one or dark steed is worth it.
Nothing is so exhilarating in life as to be shot at with no result. - Winston Churchill
First off if he ambushes his beastmen he has to be playing beastmen not mortals and beastmen can't use a hellcannon so your being cheated. And that's wjhy your loseing. Please get upset at your oppenet it's fun tell him to read the entire paragrapgh and stuff.