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I recently got interested in the Druchii, a very elite, offensive force of purely misunderstood elves.
How should one approach the dark elves? Of all the gaming experience I have (5 conflicts, and 2 GTs to name the big ones) I have never seen a dark elf army close to top 5-10 in generalship. Not that I think this army is undercompetitive, but it seems to lack something.
Lastly, how would you play a cult of slannesh ? So many caracter choices (and the anointed ! a toughness 4 elf!) and units too.
Hmm.....I don't feel that Dark Elves are lacking, I find them very fun to play with (and rewarding too!). I don't think they are underpowered either (despite being told this by GW staff at my local GW...). I don't think they excel in any particular area, but I find they are (or can be) powerful in all. They have very good magic (along with +1 to cast) which can be used to prevent enemy shooting, stop units from moving and just mainly causing damage! I find their magic is very helpful for controlling the game so you can pick your battles with your high-cost and weak troops.
I believe that Dark Elves work better on the offense than defense, hence I use their speed to my advantage (Dark Riders are amazing!). I use my magic to support the rest of the army by trying to control the movement of their units (Or stop their shooting if against Dwarfs or Wood Elves etc. (Really Helps!)). Then I try to use the speed of the Dark Riders and Shades etc. to harass the enemy with crossbow fire and encircle them or set up charges with the Dark Riders (Mage hunting and war machine hunting too....:shifty: ). This then allows me to get my units of Warriors in combat with the support of my heavy hitters who hopefully with the support of the rest of the army can hit all the necessary units. These include Cold One Knights, Cold One Chariots (all of which cause fear of course!), War Hydras (which reminds me that Dark Elves can have quite a few Terror causing units in the army), Flanking units of Executioners etc...
But yes....I shall stop rambling now, but that is roughly how I use them. I rely on their speed to set up combat and choose my battles with support from magic if need be, and let the heavy hitters do the rest! You just have to be careful not to be careless! All the units need to serve their purpose really (I am sure you probably know all this but oh well :w00t: ).
But yes, I don't think they are underpowered at all, and I find them one of the most fun armies to play with (But I like speed!). I have no experience with Cult of Slaanesh, so I can't comment, but I don't like the lists out of the Storm of Chaos book....Cult of Slaanesh combines the strengths of Chaos with the Strengths of Dark Elves so you lose a few of the disadvantages you had before....I think Dark Elves are fine as they are...
Hope I helped! (and sorry for the unnecessarily long post....I am leavin for the Download festival in like 1 hour! I am gonna see Tool, Deftones, Metallica (again!) etc....I am so excited! Wish me luck so I don't get trampled on and killed! :w00t: ).....(Again.....)...:shifty:
....He is coming for YOU....
"Master Bungle is right" - Stonehambey
"Get out of my house Master Bungle!" - Victim
i started as basic dark elf (up to 2000pt) and switched to CoS. like bungle says, dark magic is strong. dark magic AND slaneesh magic is devistating. CoS high points are the ability to be immune to psychology on ANY unit you wanna spend the points on, the anointed is a god, and you have a lot of shock troops. the downfall is that your "main-stay" troops are all listed as Specials, so you have to be keen on army building.
general play style i use is to push the middle with a chunk of chaos warriors. players familiar with these guys realize that they need to be stopped with a lot of force. this gets your oppenent focus on THEM. i then use a unit of cold one knights to assist the chaos warriors. on the sides i have my bolt throwers and my fast cavalry pushing AFTER my middle is focused on. this gives me the opportunity to divert my fast calv to assist the middle if it gets hectic. many of the core units of CoS are little to no armor shock troops, so i use them in small quantities to flank, or swarm the opponent's fodder.
it's a shame that they dont allow the chaos knights to be chosen, because at the cost of 1 unit = 2 rares they are definately not worth it. however, you can take chaos spawns at 2 per 1 rare as well as bolt throwers. this gives you a nice "happy medium" of shooting and toughness. i tend to spread my strengths over all phases. i hate loosing a game because i didnt stand a chance in a fraction of a turn. CoS is famous for this imo.
I don't think the DE lack something as you mentioned. I think that the DE is a very balanced army, and it takes a sense of tactics and experience to be able to play really good with them. I think the reason you don't see any DE winning or come on top on the bigger events isn't because they "lack" something but because some other armies are unbalanced and have the edge over some other armies... for eg a shootly skaven army will have it pretty easy to beat DE just because they're "broken". While DE doesn't have a particular edge over any other army (hm... well maybe Oger Kingdoms).Originally Posted by Wolf_Pack
But as the above posters stated DE is a very fun and challeging army to play with.
on the CoS though I can't comment much... cause I've never played with or against them. But I don't like their list very much... and then if you choose to start a force with them think it through before you do, casue GW isn't shure about to include the cult list in the 7th ed. But then it'll probably be another 3 years before a new DE armybook will come out.
Good, I see alot of points brought up. Well I did think they were a bit underpowered (you know, as a dwarf, I don't trust elves!) but I see that I'll have to look at them with a sharper eye, and take things with a grain of salt. And most important I love a challenging army!
As far as the main list goes, wich of these routes be the safest road to a succesful armylist (not hardship wise, I can take the learning curve) ?
I am thinking either have a speed dedicated list, with lord on dragon, dark riders happies and a fair bit of shooting support, with hard hitting coldone knights, or the more classic magic and elusive armylist ?
Possibly worth mentioning (since I only discovered it recently!) the GW Update to the Dark Elf army book that improves various stats, lowers Warriors point costs etc.
Yes, very true, but I was able to grab a second edition of the current armybook.Originally Posted by Midwinter
I think dragons are overrated... I'd pick a manticore or a dark pegasus anyday... in addition those two beast are far more dark elfish than a dragon . But dragons are still very potent of dealing damage. But I think you'll need the pts spent more on your units.Originally Posted by Wolf_Pack
dark riders and harpies are excelent units... shades are very nice too so give them a shot (keep in mind to keep those units @ smal-medium size). For shooting bolthrowers can never go wrong... crossbow warriors with sheilds are potent too.
for hard hitting units Cold one knights and warhydra are fairly fast and pretty hard. Other potent hard hitting units is chariots... but as they can't march they can't keep up with other fast units.
Good flankers are executioners, corsairs and witchelves. and last for excellent staying power use black guards but warriors with spear and shields are most decent as well and more commonly used.
For an uniqe ninja l33t kind of unit try out Mengil Manhide's Manflayers... they're NASTY... but cost a fortune.
Character tips goes like this (from my own experience). Highborn > high sorceress for the first lord choise just to get his Ld10. If you want a second lord it have to be a high sorceress on pegasus... nothing goes up to dark elf magic .
The hero choises consist of mostly magic in my armies sorceress on dark steeds = invalueable. But assassins and bsb are nice additions to the DE army. The assassin is a dubble edged sword, they can do tremendous damage or die doing nothing, you have to know your opponent to be able to use them effectively. BSB is nice cause the elves already high ld... and getting a re-roll on that is just evil... think black guard with a BSB on a chariot as flanker... they'll never break.
Nobles are nice extra pounch to your units... but other than that they arn't that good characters... they'll often die if they're facing other characters... eg duels. But if you're playing <2k games a noble for general isn't half bad cause it's Ld9. I don't use beastmasters just because the character is plain bad! they can't fight and they rarely encounter lone beast by themselves... so only take a beastmaster if you're fanatic about having a manticore in <2k games... otherwise stick to other characters and take a warhydra if you must have a monster.
There is one important lession you should learn is that most DE models will die fast if they're beeing hit on as they're T3 and have next to nothing in armour. You must break your enemy on the charge or the following turn or your engaged units will most likely perish. DE's main strengths is mobility, magic and shooting. Not using at least one of these strengths is like try to run with a cripple.
As far as tactics go, i have to disagree with master bungle, I have had alot of success with defensive DE lists. Im not saying the offense style doesnt work, im sure it does, im just saying defence can work too if you do it right. In a 1000 pt game vs tome kings i wiped out everything and i only used about 550 points worth of my own army.Originally Posted by Wolf_Pack
With the defense style you have to be really good at deployment though, you need a keen instinct to know where the enemy will start and where they will likely move to, who they will target etc. and also where your own Close comabt things need to be in order to guard the ranged units but not block line of sight.
The reason most people fail with these lists is that they send their close combat units forward too soon.. so they are going half offence and half defence..which doesnt work.. you need to keep your Close combat units back while you pummel the enemy from a distance (usually for about the first 2 turns..getting the first turn REALLY helps!) until the enemy gets almost into their charge range, then go on the counter offensive (send close combat units forward to intercept the enemy and back them up with magic)
There is a big difference between offensive & counter offensive.
Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
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Good. I've seen alot of good suff, and I'll post up an army list soon enough. Thanks again for the help.