Cold One Knights or Mercenary Cav? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    99 (x3)

    Cold One Knights or Mercenary Cav?

    EDIT: I'm an idiot, I was adding 10 points to the cost of a COK.

    I've been pondering the Cold One Knights for a while, and I wonder if they couldn't be replaced with mercenaries. Or simply Chariots.

    Plusses: S5+ S4 attack on the charge, 2+ save, fear causing.

    Minuses: M7, T3, STUPIDITY (which means they'll fail a move 2/3 games even with a highborn), HIGH COST (nearly 30 points a guy).

    So, while I like the stats associated with the COKs, I can't help but feel that they are expensive for these stats, and dangerously unreliable for such high points. I feel like they have to cower around the infantry so they don't risk failing a stupidity check and getting stranded out in no-mans land. Which strikes me as just insane for an army that relies upon precision strikes.

    On the other hand, I could hire Mercenary Cav for around 20 points a model, who are -1 WS, LD, steed S, much lower initiative, but could be M8 if I sacrifice the barding. They won't cause fear, but I think they'd be much more reliable. But they'd cost a Rare choice, which loses me the potential for a hydra. And if the Highborn was on a COK, he'd have to test for stupidity anyway.

    Or I could field Voland's Venators for around 200 points, and have 7 S6 attacks on the charge, and no stupidity. But no neat fear/terror effects either.

    So, I was wondering what other people think about this dilemna, and generally how people feel about their COKs. Have people fielded mercenary cav with DE, and if so, how have they fared?

    Thanks,
    Koosh

    Last edited by kooshlord; August 2nd, 2006 at 17:26.

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  3. #2
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    117 (x6)

    I havent used mercenary cav before, but as for COK's;

    Firstly its not a 2/3 chance of failing a stupidty test with a highborn's Ld.. only a roll of 11 or 12 will fail.. so a 5+6, or a 6+6... so thats 2 combinations out of 36.. hence a 1/18 chance of failing..
    A regualr CoK at Ld 9 will fail on 4 combinatons: 6+6, 5+6, 4+6, 5+5. So thats 4/36.. thats a 1/9 chance of failing.
    A chariot is the same but fails on 2 extra combinations, 4+5, 3+6. = 1/6 chance of failing
    (all are much better than 2/3).

    I dont think CoK's can simply be replaced by chariots. They serve a similar purpose and similar strenghts/weaknesses.

    Advantages of chariots over CoK's:
    -2x Cheaper in points
    -Impact hits
    -Better armour save bonus for a character.
    -Higher Toughness

    Disadvantages of chariots compared to CoK's:
    -2x slower (harder to get flank charges)
    -Can be destroyed in a single shot by S7 or higher (cannons, dwarf bolt throwers etc).
    -Lower Ld, (more likely to fail Stupidity).
    -Overall probably a bit less deadly (depending how lucky you are with impact hit rolls.. a roll of 4-6 will make its charge just as deadly as a unit of knights, for cheaper cost. But hence a CoK charge is more reliable)
    -Lower WS. less likely to hit.

    as you can see, they are fairly balanced. Thats why I beleive neither can simply be substitued for the other. They work best in tandom with eachother.
    I have a unit of 6 Cok's, 1 chariot, and 1 chariot ridden by a highborn. That gives me the advantages of both units, while the highborn takes away the disadvantage of the lower Ld on the chariots.
    If I simply had 3-4 chariots, I would be lacking speed & the capability of flanking. Alternatively, 2 units of CoK's, I would be lacking toughness & the capability to charge things head on.

    I think having mercenaries in your army shows that you dont have faith in your own units, and that you possible even regret taking the army you have. Unless the mercenaries somehow fit in with fluff you have given the army.
    I say have faith & take druchii units.

    Hope I helped. Cheers
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

  4. #3
    Senior Member Captain Snowball's Avatar
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    29 (x2)

    If your that worried about the COK's failing their stupidity test, then why not play a CoS army list? that way for the sacrifice of rare choices you can field a unit of chaos knights instead.

    Also, in defence of the COK's themselves, i play with a unit of them almost every game as well and i have to say that they very rarely fail their stupidity test. In all honesty stupidity is probably the only let down of COK's. And this 'dis-advantage is not too badly debilitating.

    As for their points cost.....it actually isnt that bad. It is almost the same as a unit of empire knights for heavens sake. Then you have to consider the cost of chosen chaos knights....at almost 1.5 times a COK these guys are really heavy.

    Chariots stupidity can be offset by the simple addtion of a noble in the back with a great weapon. With heavy armour, cloak + chariot (all times 2) you have a unit that deals out 2D6 +2 impact hits on the charge as well as 6 str 4 hits from crew and cold ones and a further 6 str 6 hits from the nobles. Absolutely devastating.....not to mention the nobles 2+ saves.

    As for the whole 'precision strikes' thing, just field dark riders OR (my personal favorite) a number of nobles riding dark pegasii........ouch!!
    Even harpies can help with this....i usually find the cold one chariots and knights are best at cleaning up the mess afterwards or squaring up against really heavy units......if planned right then your army will act in perfect coherency and will be beautifully precise, leading enemy units right into the jaws of death.

    Regards

  5. #4
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    99 (x3)

    Manu_Forti: Yeah, I realize 1/9 chance of failing a single stupidity role. so using the law of large numbers, you will average out to failing 1 of every 9 stupidity checks. If a given game has 6 turns, you need 6 checks. 3 games have 18 turns, of which you will fail 2 checks. So 2 out of every 3 games you will fail a stupidity check. Hence my 2/3 games number, which wasn't very clear. Thanks for the synopsis anyway, good to be confirmed in my counts!

    Also thanks for addressing the chariots v. Knights issue. I think chariots might be more deadly on average, but I need to go through the math with a rulebook. I'll get back to everyone on that...

    Captain.Snowball: I'd rather steer clear of CoS, I already play chaos and want a real change of tactics, not chaos+elves. I want to play with more fragile warriors for a while and learn some precision. I'm just afraid that murphy's law will get me on those stupidity checks.

    So, how to use COK. Do people mostly keep them near the lines until flanking time, or do they go marauding ahead of the infantry? Also, do people ever take charges with them? Seems like enemy cav are faster or as fast, and It'd be hard to avoid ever getting charged. Is the trick to march-block/shoot enemy cav into submission?

    Thanks to all!
    Koosh

  6. #5
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    117 (x6)

    Ok, I thought you meant 2/3 chance of failing each roll. not failing 1 roll in 2/3 games.

    As for how to use them. Yes they are most often used as flankers, depending on the enemy units strength, sometimes they are good enough to charge them head on and win. But dont charge a full strenght strong unit like 20 dwarves head on. Or any unit that contains a fairly nasty character.
    I think you would have to be pretty careless to get your own knights charged, unless they failed stupidity & couldnt move. The only time they should really be charged is if they are already in combat, then something comes along and flank/rear charges them.
    Light cav are fast enough to charge them, but who would ever do that lol..
    & yeah, normally shooting enemy cav is the way to go. RBT's do the trick.

    cheers
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

  7. #6
    Senior Member Captain Snowball's Avatar
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    29 (x2)

    March them along the flanks so that they remain to the side and slightly ahead of your army. This way, they wont be charged because then the centre of the army can fold out and flank charge whoever did the charging and they are also in a position to flank any enemy infantry etc units that move throught the centre.

    Another good use (also along the flanks) is to use them as fast cavalry deterants. No general will charge a unit of fast cavalry into them. And they are hard to manouvre around on the flanks thus denying fast cavalry their prime zone......

    As for the CoS army, i see......lol, i went the exact opposite way (in this case dark elves to Chaos-fantasy and Daemonhunters-40k respectively)

    Its probably worth noting that cavalry can charge through forests etc (though they are still bound by LOS rules)....believe me when i say it is worth it to see the look on your opponents face when your cavalry pop out of the woods next to their lone mage. Not entirely effective battle-wise but it keeps people on their toes..:yes:

    Regards

  8. #7
    Son of LO
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    523 (x8)

    Manu_Forti and Kooshlord i think you both need to revise your binomial distribution

    A five and a six is not the same as a six and a five.

    Ciao

    Stonehambey

  9. #8
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    99 (x3)

    Oh, neat, you're right. I think we both messed that up in different ways! It's been too long since Combinatorics..

    Excellent math there Maestro!

    So it would be 3/36 =1/12 chance per round you fail a stupidity test with Highborn, or once every other game on average. That actually sounds a lot better. If I didn't screw the numbers up again...

  10. #9
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    117 (x6)

    Not exactly sure what your point was, but I wont argue it, math aint my strong point lol.
    Oh well, cant be good at everything.. just almost
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

  11. #10
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    99 (x3)

    So Stonehambey was saying:
    Stupidity check on LD 10. If you roll 2 dice, 1 red 1 blue, there are three distinct combinations. 5&6, 6&6, 6&5.
    Not just 2. So 3 chances out of 36=1/12. Not 1/18 as you said, or 1/9 as I miscalculated (stupid division, mutter mutter).

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