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so my buddy who just purchased an OK army wants to play me at 3K pts.
ive looked over the army book and watched 1 game played, and i must say i think im in for a hell of a time.
my main concern is that i will have a very hard time causing wounds with any troops other then CoK, which wont be much good after the charge either. the magic that is available to us has pretty low S hits which will be ineffective vs. high ogre T. out of shadow, death and dark i think death appears to be the lore that has most utility in this case... any thoughts?
i was originally thinking of going with a highborn on dragon, but not so sure anymore. the breath weapon will have low effect on ogres, high on gnobblars but im not worried about them, and terror wont help me since all ogres cause fear. as mentioned i dont think heavy magic will be effective so my options seem to be dwindling.
what im thinking is going with a small number of heros and many bigger blocks of troops.
20corsairs with warbanner
9 CoK with BSB (maybe even the Banner of Nagaryth??:ninja: )
chariots? (not sure if this is safe since ogres move pretty fast.)
chunk of witch elves for poison wounding (with standard of slaughter for big CR)
a healthy portion of bolt throwers
and im toying with the idea of using the cauldron of blood since im going to have a tough time wounding.
think im on the right track? some advice please!! :yes:
Last edited by Geisticon; December 21st, 2006 at 19:13.
This is one matchup where I ALWAYS wish I had my cauldron. Definitely take it!
Ogres will come to you. That one is obvious. So the cauldron will not be wasted against an opponent who won't come near it. Form your army up around it so that any combat will be done inside the radius. Your units will become much more effective.
Other things to keep in mind when playing Ogres:
You need good leadership so as not to fail key charges. A highborn will make a great general. He doesn't need a weapon that ignores armor, and killing blow is useless. Thus, he only needs a cheap item to raise his strength, allowing him to hurt the Ogres. A weapon like the Crimson Death, sword of striking, and even the chill blade become very effective. Especially if you are fielding a cauldron. Also keep in mind that if you are already fielding the cauldron, the venom sword becomes very powerful in this matchup against enemy characters, or the slavegiant.
RxBs work wonders vs Ogres. With 3k points to play with, you should have maybe 30 or so crossbow warriors. Fire into units of bulls or leadbelchers and will inflict a surprising amount of damage. The unarmored Ogres fall to massed S3 shots.
Witch Elves are absolutely amazing vs Ogres. Especially with the cauldron, omg. A sneaky tactic that I reserve for Ogres is to give the hag the "black lotus" venom, and have her challenge a bull champion. If she only inflicts 1 wound, her opponent is very unlikely to strike her back, (hittin' on 5's and wounding on 4s). If you inflict 2 wounds, he will almost definitely not hurt you. With poison and the cauldron, the rest of your witch elves should tear the Ogres to pieces. Absolutely include witches in your list.
Chariots are great when played with the cauldron. The FaQ on it specifies that impact hits may reroll wounds as well, making them twice as deadly. Include a pair of chariots, and they should break through units by themselves.
Magic isn't all that bad against Ogres. Doom and Darkness is *wonderful* for causing panic, and the myriad of damage dealing spells the lore of death offers can be very useful.
So for an overall battle plan I'd say deploy the cauldron in the middle of your army, and have enough shooting behind it to really force your opponent to get into combat asap. If he advances a unit of Ogres within 10 inches of you, take the charge. With the cauldron, a unit of witches/corsairs/chariots will pummel him. If he lands himself 10-12 inches away, back up 2.5 inches and shoot him again. Force him to surrender the charge to you, or to take more damage.
Take lots of dark riders and shades. Make sure that if any of his units panic, (and they will), that you are already behind him to cut him down, or are ready to charge fleeing units to run them down. Only dark riders and shades can really do this, as harpies will almost always fail fear tests. Good luck!
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ok cool, sounds like i have the right mindset going
ill mess with some points and post an army later. thx for the thoughts!
edit: oh man i forgot to comment on chariot re-rolls... that's OP! lol
I agree that a pair of chariots would be good.
Playing against ogres is similar to playing against a cavalry army, in the sense that you need to be the one who charges. They dont get a strenght bonus like cavalry, but they do get those impact hits.. considering infantry are slower than ogres, I wouldnt invest too much in massed infantry squads.. Maybe 2 blocks of 20-25 spearmen.
Basically, you need shooting, magic, and units fast enough to charge Ogres before they charge you..
Id say a Highborn in a chariot, with a second chariot next to him. Deploy them in the centre and use their speed to counter charge any unit that gets close. His Ld will make the stupidty tests fairly safe..
I think this would also be one of the rare situations where it's good to take 10 Cold one Knights. Its makes them strong enough to take the enemy head on. Take 10, Dread Knights, Standard bearer + standard of slaughter (by the way, they cant take banner of Nagyroth).
Normally CoK's cant take units head on because they suck against massed infantry combat res.. BUT.. Ogres dont have that.. they might have a banner & thats it, not even outnumber against 10 cav.
LEts have a look:
-You charge. 5 Knights in base to base = 6 attacks hitting on 3's. = 4 hits. Wounding on 3's = 2-3 wounds, no save. Cold Ones will get 2-3 hits, 1-2 wounds. 6+ save maybe.
+3-5 wounds (3-5)
+1 Rank (1) (if they dont have much shooting to kill 1 before combat).
+standard of slaughter (1-3)
Ogres have lost a whole model, so 8 attacks back at the most. = 4 hits = 2-3 wounds. 3+ save = 1-2 saved.
+1 wound (1)
Worst case scenario you should be winning by 4-5.. = break.
Should be a similar situation with the 2 chariots, unless you roll badly for impact hits (even doubles 1's is 4 S5 hits though :w00t: ). Theres also a better chance the Ogres will outnumber the chariots, but you should still win.
So, chariots & Knights give you something to hit back with. & immune to fear which is important.
I'd also take 1 unit of Dark riders to flank any Ogres who manage to charge your infantry.
A small unit of executioners is another idea. Normally they have the same problem as CoK's in that they cant hit massed units head on due to static combat resolution. Once again, against Ogres this is less of problem. It would give you 6-7 attacks hitting on 3', wounding on 2's, no save. Add a banner & 1 rank bonus & they might be enough to break a unit of bulls.
The only problem is they are infantry so its not easy to get the charge. If the ogres charge these guys, they are history.. The banner of Murder could help this, but its a bit pricey so it negates that "effectve low cost unit" appeal.
How much magic & magic defense do you think he will have?..
Id say something like this:
Highborn in chariot, tooled up
Noble on Cold one, fairly cheap (halberd. Hvy armour, SDC)
Level 2, tooled up
Level 2, tooled up
25 spearmen (or 20 corsairs + warbanner)
5 Dark Riders
10 crossbows (level 2 here)
10 crossbows (level 2 here)
9 Cold One Knights, Dread knight, standard + SoSlaughter (noble here)
1 Cold one chariots (next to the highborn)
12 Executioners, full command, MAYBE banner of murder
4 RBT's (or 2 RBT's & 1 War Hydra).
(one of the few armies which I dont oppose taking 4 RBT's against [for cheese reasons])
That probably wouldnt add up to 3000, so you should still have enough for your witches & couldron.. if you're really keen to go with that..
Normally I would advice more infantry than that but against Ogres, they are just fodder, the static combat res isnt enough to save them, unless you charge, but you should assume you wont.
Ive said mount both of the Combat characters because on foot they are too slow & will get charged & wont have much armour. The mounts give them much needed extra armour. & speed. Plus they reinforce the two hard hitting counter attack units (which will win you the game if you do it right). Like I said before, both of these units being immune to fear will help a lot too.
The magic may vary depending on what the Ogre player takes. If he takes a lot of magic, then bump them down to level 1's with Seal + scrolls. Or of he has a lot of magic defense, maybe throw in a third level 2, darkstar cloak, power stones etc
Death magic is the way to go. Dark hand of death & Wind of death.
If he has a Hunter then pour all of your shooting & magic into him. Those lion things will charge forward & hold up your characters, which will ruin those strategies. Either that or he will just harpoon them..
After that, aim for the other characters & things like Gaints. I'd consider concentrating the crossbow fire on the Knoblars. they are weak, but they can get in the way &/or hold up units.
Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
W L D
21 5 5
A battle standard bearer is a must.
Watch out for a tyrant with longstrider and two handed weapon as well, he could catch your chariots off guard.Executioners would wound ogres on a 3 up. Or even a four up, if they are affected by the toothcrackerOriginally Posted by Manu_Forti
Let us know how it goes, regardless
I guess you could drop one of the level 2's for the BSB. and downgrade the other to a level 1 with seal of Ghrond + scroll, for cheap magic defense.
I dont think attacking style magic does much at 2000 points without a level 3-4. But you really need that Highborn, so not an option.
true about the executioners. & I guess killing blow doesnt come into play either. Still worth taking though, for lack of anything better.
Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
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21 5 5
generally the only way to combat ogres is to take out their momentum. make sure you have control over charging and generally you will end up laughing. a flying unit is the best idea for this as not only do you gain the speed advantage thanks to march blocking you can set up a rear charge for finishing blows.
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Don't go for rear charges against ogres, all you get is +2 to combat res, but they still get all there attacks. If you an get a nice flank charge that is perfect, because ussualy only 1 ogre can attack back, and if you kill him they have no attacks, so they may only have a baner for combat res, and maybe outnumber, if you charge with a small unit. Although if you can rear charge a unit that is already engages and only has one rank, go for it, since you won't give the ogres any extra attacks.
I would suggest taking dark riders, with there speed, you can get in close and shoot up some ogres while march blocking, then when they move you can shoot again without moving and still march block them.
The 2 chariots seem like a good idea, I would suggest throwing in a noble with each one, and have one be a BSB with the warbanner, this will give you +2 CR to tie the ogres right away(if they have outnumber and banner). with 2d6 +2 impact hits, 2 nobles, 2 crew and 4 cold one attacking, you should kill a lot of ogres.
Also for magic, Shadow would be great, Crown of taidron combined with steed of shadow allows you to fly your wizard being there lines, march block, then she can attempt to cast Crwon of Taidron. shades of death allows you to make a unit fear causing, allowing you to ignore fear test causes by ogres, and if he used noblers they won'y charge you to often. Unseen lurker can give you an unexpected charge, but is hard to cast, and pit of shades kills whole models if they fail an I test, but is also hard to cast.
Well hope this helped, good gaming.
An easy way of slowing down Ogres, is by using small units of Shades. Use them to march block and harass with some shooting or even suicide charge them to slow down an expensive unit or 2.
4x RBTs is a must.
I never leave home without a unit of Manflayers. Poisoned shooting and HtH attacks, skirmising and scout??? *drool* A unit of 10 using multiple shots can cause a lot of poisoned wounds. Ogres have little to no saves so you should easily make a few units panic from casualties and by fleeing units. Thats a lot of panic tests.
Think about using a Manticore.The terror will help in combat and a flying creature that can negate ranks on a flank or rear charge is good against any army.
Lots of magic. Doombolts tear up Orgres nicely.
OK player here so my 2 cents.
against the Ogres Shooting and Poison are your best friends. Toughness 5 doesnt mean jack against Poison. I concur abour the Repeater Boltthrower as anything that can cause multiple wounds is very nice to have.
Will say this tho. if you mass to much shooting ogres are likely to place Gnoblers in a very thin wide formation in front of the Floppy tittied fatties to soak up the shooting.
Dont worry about trying to negate armorsaves as ogres are pretty much deviod of anything over 5+. And in my opinion Executioners are just free VP in the ogre players pocket. That 5+ save is gonna add up to ALOT of dead Druichii since the basic ogre str is 4 and a single unit of Ironguts (str 6) will kill them so fast you might forget why you painted the models in the first place.
Witches in my experience are a Pain in the rear. all those poison attacks add up to alot of hurt when they go off. Killing blow is absolutly useless as with the exception of Gnoblars the entire ogre army is immune to its effect.
Shoot the crap outta them and then try to make em run. Ogre leadership sucks and use that to your advantage.
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